Grading At-Will Powers

[Leatherhead]

While moving to their next destination. It hardly takes 5 minutes to reload.

Navy Seals check for traps and scout ahead whenever they go somewhere, they don't blindly and constantly rush in headlong into dangerous situations like adventures do.


Also, I have said it before and I will say it again: It isn't metagaming to rest after someone gets banged up, but it is metagaming to press on because mathematically you should be able to handle it.

 

[Fedifensor]

While moving to their next destination. It hardly takes 5 minutes to reload.

It does in 4th edition...

 

[Arbitrary]

Most of the time I see no reason not to allow the party to take their 5 minutes for a short rest and most of the time they don't have a problem taking an extended rest either.

Most of the time.

 

[keterys]

Not according to KotS.

Really, cause I'm looking at it right now and _very much according to KotS_. Are you a player or DM? I guess either way I shouldn't spoiler too much, but I'm seeing lots of encounters sprawled over multiple rooms, lines for handling if someone runs away, etc.

Not according to the DMG XP and encounter guidelines.

p41 talks about building a single encounter from multiple events that players will go through without a short rest

p60 talks about including more than just a single room, but other areas branched off from it.

p61 talks about having monsters come from 3 different corridors at once.

p113 Example fight has enemies from two other rooms coming to reinforce the inhabits of one.

If the team uses up their per encounter resources for each single individual encounter in KotS and an entire section of the dungeon attacks them, they could be toast.

So they should retreat? Honestly, once you've taken out a few rooms together at once, I've found that as a DM or Player you're fine to take a few minutes and take a breather. It even helps the game by stopping daily 'for encounter' powers from getting a little weird.

Sometimes, using an encounter (or daily) power can be overkill (e.g. like using it on a bloodied foe and taking him to -7, -2 is sufficient).

Sure, but you still have an awful lot of powers at higher level. Use your at-wills when they're a better option than something else... but do expect to get your encounter powers back. If your DM is preventing you from getting them back or a player is preventing them from being recovered, that will result in the game being less fun, most likely, due to scarcity of options and potentially getting in over your head down on resources.

Who says that encounter powers exist to be used almost every encounter? They are designed to be used a maximum of once per encounter each, but nothing indicates that they exist to be used almost every encounter.

p54 PHB: 'An encounter power can be used once per encounter'
p41 DMG: 'Typically, encounters are separated by a short rest and some amount of travel time'
'In any event, starting a new encounter without the benefits of a short rest after the last one makes the new encounter more challenging'
'If you're designing encounters in which you expect characters to move from one to the next without a rest, treat the two events as a single encounter. If the characters surprise you by running on to a new encounter without resting, it might be worth scaling back the new encounter a bit.'

That's a design assumption...

...that is spelled out quite clearly in the rules, as far as I can tell.

That is why you only get one of each. My design assumption here is different than yours.

You get one at 1st level. You can only learn the game so fast. You might get another at 2nd. You definitely get one at 3rd. And 7th. 11th. When you've got 4 encounter attack powers, you're quickly using them as much or more than at-wills.

In 3E, I always gave my players "big gun" magical items. For example, a Wand of 5D6 Fireball with 4 charges for 3rd level PCs. The reason is so that they could go to the well when they needed to do so. Empower the players to use up stronger limited resources.

Encounter powers aren't big gun abilities. They're Rage 7/day type powers.

But, I don't want everyone on my team using up most or all of their encounter powers every single encounter and then demanding to rest every single time. I disagree that the team should do this. Teams who do that are metagaming. Again, IMO.

It's not metagaming to know that you need to bandage your wounds between battle and that you need to catch your breath or your exertions will make it more difficult in the next battle. If you have a pressing need to go faster - for example, a time table, an assassin, a fleeing monster, etc - then sometimes you do that, and perhaps you'll end up burning daily powers, items, actions points, etc in those circumstances.

So now, you are saying that instead of the players being Lemmings and conforming the PC actions to the recovery rules, the DM should be a Lemming and conform his dungeon design to the recovery rules.

The DM should design for a good game. I believe that includes not putting a TPK worth of enemies within one encounter's worth of space, yes. I would suggest that you'd probably run a better game if you learned how pacing for the new system works and modeled encounters around it. The DMG has a lot of good advice to help in that respect.

 

[KarinsDad]

p54 PHB: 'An encounter power can be used once per encounter'

Note: "can be". Not "should be" or "designed to be" like you claimed.

If they had meant should be, they would have written it:

'An encounter power can and should be used once per encounter'

Instead, they are not trying to tell people how to play.

p41 DMG: 'Typically, encounters are separated by a short rest and some amount of travel time'
'In any event, starting a new encounter without the benefits of a short rest after the last one makes the new encounter more challenging'
'If you're designing encounters in which you expect characters to move from one to the next without a rest, treat the two events as a single encounter. If the characters surprise you by running on to a new encounter without resting, it might be worth scaling back the new encounter a bit.'

...that is spelled out quite clearly in the rules, as far as I can tell.

Nope. Nowhere there does it state that "The encounter powers exist to be used almost every encounter". Not one rule you quoted here discusses how often Encounter Powers should be used.

So, that's still a design assumption on your part.

The sentences you quoted here talk about how the DM should set up typical encounters and what he might consider doing if his players surprise by not being Encounter Lemmings.

Personally, I think telling the DM to fudge is bad advice.

If the new system is really balanced, it is balanced to handle players moving on to the next encounter without a rest WITHOUT the DM resorting to fudging.

And, most players will only do that if they have not used up most of their per encounter powers and/or are not wounded, so it's a bit of a moot point.

The next encounter might be more challenging, but nothing stops the players from retreating or pulling out their big gun Dailies.

Encounter powers aren't big gun abilities. They're Rage 7/day type powers.

PotAto, potato. Rage sounds like big gun to me.

"Oh shoot, that's a boss. Frag him."

If a PC has used up all of his Encounter powers already in the encounter on the mooks, he will be forced to use At Will or Dailies on the Boss.

 

[Fedifensor]

So, that's still a design assumption on your part.

To be fair, since most of the posters seem to be lining up with his perception of encounter powers, maybe the assumption is on your part? From what I've seen so far (and I admit my 4E actual play experience is limited, being that the rules have only been out a month), you're meant to use your encounter powers in encounters without holding back, while keeping the daily powers in reserve for the big threats.

Regardless of assumptions, the only thing that matters is how the rules are written, and how your DM views those rules when he designs adventures for your group. Which may explain the different perceptions on this issue.

 

[keterys]

Rage 7/day if you have 4 encounters per day = rage every encounter. With some to spare.

At any rate, I think this is sufficiently off topic for this discussion. If you want to continue it in a separate topic, feel free, though I'm more than content to just agree to disagree... and would probably just prefer it that way.

I glanced through a grading wiki today, and back over the scores I assigned on the first page, and I'm pretty happy with how things stand for now based on that reading. I think it could use a little work, but I want to put this to rest for now and plow through encounters.

If there's a clamor for adjustments, I will make them, however.

 

[KarinsDad]

From what I've seen so far (and I admit my 4E actual play experience is limited, being that the rules have only been out a month), you're meant to use your encounter powers in encounters without holding back, while keeping the daily powers in reserve for the big threats.

Regardless of assumptions, the only thing that matters is how the rules are written, and how your DM views those rules when he designs adventures for your group. Which may explain the different perceptions on this issue.

No, I think it is because I am a resource control player. Don't waste them. Use them effectively. If you didn't need them and didn't use them in a given encounter, that's ok.

As an example, we had an encounter a few weeks back. 5 on 8 (but 4 were minions). We wiped the floor with the opposition in 3 or 4 rounds. The Paladin got slightly injured. Nobody else did and nobody else used up any Encounter Powers except the Eladrin Warlock (who btw, the player of which was not there and he was being played by another player) who used both his Encounter Attack Power and his Fey Step.

A foe got away, so we chased him and ran into a really big nasty encounter. The Warlock got surrounded at one point and knocked unconsious. After the battle, we were talking about it and the player of the Warlock was asking why we continued on and didn't rest. We said because we didn't want that foe to get away. He said, "But if I would have had my encounter powers, I could have teleported away and zapped them. I would have never gone unconscious. I used them right away because the game is designed to use your Encounter powers every encounter".

No, it's not. The game is designed to allow players to chose what they want to do and when they want to do it. Using which abilities when is a player choice. Even if someone decides to use Encounter powers every single encounter, that is their choice. Not WotC design.

In the first encounter, he chose to use both Encounter abilities. He didn't have to (especially the Fey Step which was just haphazardly used). He burned through his Encounter abilities and about 8 rounds later, paid the price for doing so. Pros and Cons.

This is just a discussion on different ways to play the game. The game is not designed either way. The game is designed to allow choices.

And, that includes choices on which powers to take in the first place (more or less, the original conversation here).

 

[Leatherhead]

No, I think it is because I am a resource control player. Don't waste them. Use them effectively. If you didn't need them and didn't use them in a given encounter, that's ok.

As an example, we had an encounter a few weeks back. 5 on 8 (but 4 were minions). We wiped the floor with the opposition in 3 or 4 rounds. The Paladin got slightly injured. Nobody else did and nobody else used up any Encounter Powers except the Eladrin Warlock (who btw, the player of which was not there and he was being played by another player) who used both his Encounter Attack Power and his Fey Step.

A foe got away, so we chased him and ran into a really big nasty encounter. The Warlock got surrounded at one point and knocked unconsious. After the battle, we were talking about it and the player of the Warlock was asking why we continued on and didn't rest. We said because we didn't want that foe to get away. He said, "But if I would have had my encounter powers, I could have teleported away and zapped them. I would have never gone unconscious. I used them right away because the game is designed to use your Encounter powers every encounter".

No, it's not. The game is designed to allow players to chose what they want to do and when they want to do it. Using which abilities when is a player choice. Even if someone decides to use Encounter powers every single encounter, that is their choice. Not WotC design.

In the first encounter, he chose to use both Encounter abilities. He didn't have to (especially the Fey Step which was just haphazardly used). He burned through his Encounter abilities and about 8 rounds later, paid the price for doing so. Pros and Cons.

This is just a discussion on different ways to play the game. The game is not designed either way. The game is designed to allow choices.

And, that includes choices on which powers to take in the first place (more or less, the original conversation here).

I think you should get past the heroic tier and see how the game goes with holding back on encounter powers. Also I believe any encounter that doesn't spend approximately 1/4 of someones total healing surges is an atypical one. So a character going unconscious is actually something to be expected, where an encounter with only one person getting barely scratched would be abnormal.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think you should get past the heroic tier and see how the game goes with holding back on encounter powers.

Well, there are several things to consider here:

1) Monsters gain a lot more hit points than PCs at higher levels.

2) PCs have 4 to 6 Encounter Attack powers at Paragon level and above (and can have several Encounter Utility powers as well).

3) Monster Defenses tend to increase by 1 per level whereas PC bonuses to hit do not without using special powers.

So sure, when PCs get more Encounter Powers and the monsters have a lot more hit points, the synergies are more important and the best synergies come from Encounter and Daily powers.

However, I suspect that even at higher levels, some players will not always blow through all of their Encounter powers every encounter, especially Minion encounters.

Also I believe any encounter that doesn't spend approximately 1/4 of someones total healing surges is an atypical one.

It depends on party makeup. A party that concentrates on AC and other defenses tend to use fewer healing surges. A party with more than a single Leader will use fewer healing surges. A party where the low defense PCs use ranged attacks from cover will use fewer healing surges. A party with multiple high CON PCs will have more healing surges to use.

But I agree, healing surges is the main limiting factor on number of encounters per day. Our max so far is 7 in a single day (and we also had a 5 in a day with resources to spare).

So a character going unconscious is actually something to be expected, where an encounter with only one person getting barely scratched would be abnormal

Sure it was abnormal. That was why we considered it no great shakes to move on without resting.

As for unconscious, we have had few of those except in the first few gaming sessions. Even against tough foes, we don't really expect it much anymore (although the DM does get hot with the dice on occasion). The reason is that once people got used to their PC's abilities and limitations, and those of the other PCs, combat started flowing pretty smoothly. Out of the last 11 combats, we have had three PCs fall unconscious (and one of those was due to extremely bad luck). We have two Strikers and a Wizard, so that helps whittle down opponents quickly. It's all about Action Economy.