Grading At-Will Powers

[keterys]

Just a note from my higher level (12th) game... Scorching Burst wasn't used once all night, and every fight had some minions (3 fights: 4, 4, and 6 minions respectively). Encounter powers (and I think a daily in one fight) took care of them. Thunderwave did see some use (4 or so times I think) - I believe Scorching Burst would have been used once, but she couldn't do it without provoking at that moment.

 

[KarinsDad]

Which is the biggest draw of the power, and Scorching Burst is still going to be a better overall minion killer, because you can hit multiple targets with it (especially once Spell Accuracy comes into play and you can drop it on friends safely).

This is true. As a minion killer, Scorching Burst becomes strong when Spell Accuracy is available. But, Cloud of Daggers is still automatic whereas Scorching Burst is not.

The two main disadvantages with taking Scorching Burst with Illusory Ambush (instead of with Cloud of Daggers) is that instead of having a high damage single target and a moderate damage AoE, one is instead using a moderate damage single target and a moderate damage AoE, and one does not have an auto-minion killer. Both Scorching Ray and Illusory Ambush can miss. Cloud of Daggers can only miss killing a minion opponent if that foe is somehow removed from the area.

The main advantage with taking Scorching Burst with Illusory Ambush is that the caster has a Reflex attack and a Will attack which allows for some cases where he hits more often, but for less damage per hit.

Of course it does more damage...because that's all it does. Illusory Ambush does damage AND reduces incoming damage (and reduces the chance of being hit with status effects that are based on a hit roll).

Actually, Cloud of Daggers also controls a square for a round (up to 2 rounds with an Orb). A DM who allows non-minions to just willy nilly walk through CoD spells is not really roleplaying them properly and following the rules:

Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you've done to it and what conditions you've imposed.

This rule does not necessarily allow a creature to know how much damage a given CoD area does, nor what the spell even does unless the power is actually affecting the creature. All a non-affected creature knows is what it can perceive, that there are whirling daggers of force (unless it makes some form of skill check or has other knowledge).

Now, there could be times when a creature would want to take the chance and move through a CoD (such as when marked with Divine Challenge and it cannot get to the Paladin), but as a general rule of thumb, CoD controls a square for a round.

And, it does this minor amount of terrain control every single time it is used (unlike Ray of Frost and Illusory Ambush whose extra abilities depend on several external factors as to their utility). Combined with Thunderwave or other forced movement powers, CoD can allow a Wizard to smack a creature multiple times with it. Combined with good party tactics, it can prevent flank, slow up enemies, etc.


And yes, Illusory Ambush does what you say: ~6% of the times it is used (60% chance to hit * 10% chance of it actually affecting the outcome). This actually jumps up to ~11% of the time versus a specific creature if a creature can do two attacks in a round, but that is fairly rare.

If Illusory Ambush is used 4 times on average in encounters, then it stops a single enemy attack 1 encounter in 4 on average.

So, it tends to help out a tiny bit (saving one Healing Surge and possibly preventing one condition) once per day (assuming 4 encounters a day).

Whoop de doo! Hold the presses!

Furthermore, as you go up in levels, encounter powers (and daily powers, in tough fights) are going to provide a larger percentage of the damage you dish out, making the damage from at-will powers pale in comparison.

Which is only slightly relevant as to which At Will powers are more useful.

There are still only (typically) 5 or 6 Per Encounter powers, even at high level. Some of those might not be applicable in a given encounter, or the player might hold some in reserve, just in case a new encounter spills into the current one with no 5 minute break.

Even at 2nd level, we have had 3 or 4 times where we went from encounter x to encounter x+1 without a break. I suspect that happens sometimes in most games. Players (or DMs) who try to force breaks every single time are, IMO, metagaming a bit too much.

 

[Fedifensor]

And yes, Illusory Ambush does what you say: ~6% of the times it is used (60% chance to hit * 10% chance of it actually affecting the outcome). This actually jumps up to ~11% of the time versus a specific creature if a creature can do two attacks in a round, but that is fairly rare.

If Illusory Ambush is used 4 times on average in encounters, then it stops a single enemy attack 1 encounter in 4 on average.

You know, I did an entire post showing the math on this, and you're still going back to your 6% number, skipping several things. There's the synergy with Psychic Lock (which becomes a no-brainer if you have a psychic at-will power), the value increases when you target a foe weak to Will attacks, causing an attack to miss also allows the target to avoid status effects that occur on a hit, and the value increases considerably when the enemy uses attacks that affect multiple targets. All these things occur in addition to the power's damage capability - it's not an either/or situation.

Furthermore, the value of IA is also based on how hard it is for the enemy to hit without that penalty. In an extreme case, when the enemy normally needs a 16+ to hit you, the -4 penalty of IA + Psychic Lock makes it so the enemy needs a natural 20. That seriously changes the average damage/round numbers.

There are still only (typically) 5 or 6 Per Encounter powers, even at high level. Some of those might not be applicable in a given encounter, or the player might hold some in reserve, just in case a new encounter spills into the current one with no 5 minute break.

On the other hand, several daily powers last multiple rounds - Flaming Sphere can be up for an entire combat. As for whether an encounter power is appropriate - I don't know about you, but I choose my encounter powers based upon which ones have the most widespread applications, because I know they will be used in every combat.

Even at 2nd level, we have had 3 or 4 times where we went from encounter x to encounter x+1 without a break. I suspect that happens sometimes in most games. Players (or DMs) who try to force breaks every single time are, IMO, metagaming a bit too much.

It's metagaming to catch your breath and patch up your wounds after a group of monsters has just tried to kill you? If Jim the mage knows he needs a brief breather to refresh his spells, and that there's goblins in the next room, do you think he's going to charge straight in, or take the 5 minutes to go in with his full capabilities?

 

[Minigiant]

One thing that is not considered is the tier.

For example the wizard's CoD is awesome in the heroic tier but once you get to paragon, At will damage begins to stink and plucking minions one by one is a bad idea since they will get a real chance to beat up an ally with their paragon additions. By 13th level or so, a wizard might have many stronger enc AOE spells and might not have a decent group to fire on once he gets down to at wills only. Magic missile is nice in heroic but bad damage in paragon and probably a decent ranged shot again in epic.

But RoF gets better with age because it at least slows the enemy. With feats it'll also grant CA and vulnerability. IA has a rider effect to and it gets Psychic Lock to boost it. Thunderwave gets range two ways in the paragon tier.

It's say the in Heroic at damage and accuracy is most important. Effects and movement are the priorities in paragon. And in epic where you are mainly enc and dailies, one at will will be for damage and the other fills a hole in your strategy.

 

[Nifft]

One thing that is not considered is the tier.

For example the wizard's CoD is awesome in the heroic tier but once you get to paragon, At will damage begins to stink and plucking minions one by one is a bad idea since they will get a real chance to beat up an ally with their paragon additions.

At Paragon tier, CoD is the incorporeal-killer. It deals either full damage +1d10 or +2d10 (depending on how you interpret the feat) to foes who have below average hit points.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Cadfan]

Cadfan, if they publish a power that does 1d6+X, then later one that does 1d8+Int, and they're otherwise identical, that shouldn't change the score of the 1d6+X. It should just raise a flag that there is a clear mistake or indicate a clear trend of power creep that people can adapt to depending on what powers they allow. For example, if someone were designing a 'scout' or 'swashbuckler' class and mining powers from the ranger and rogue, they might not include Twin Strike... at which point Careful Strike is no longer a zero.

Right, but I only grade powers in relation to other powers within the same class. If Power X were given to two different classes, it would probably get two different grades, one for each class.

Priest's Shield isn't all _that_ bad compared to, say, Reaping Strike. It's more defensive and it's not particularly impressive, sure, but it's not "Wow, you're serious? You're taking that... uhh, why?"

Priest's Shield is also the only cleric melee at will that provides some benefit over a standard attack even if you haven't got an ally double teaming the monster you're fighting.

Re: Ray of Frost

You can't judge this power without taking it in the context of the Wintertouched and the... whatever its called I forget paragon feat. In that context, it is very good. Plus, it synergizes with other cold spells- they create areas of difficult terrain, Ray of Frost slows monsters who must then slowly traverse the difficult terrain.

Re: Cloud of Daggers

Yes, it is a perfectly serviceable single target minion killer. In fact, its a perfectly serviceable single target spell, and I like it overall. But remember context again. Its part of a class that is absolutely loaded with effects which butcher minions. Past the first few levels, a wizard will very rarely be hurting for a way to slaughter minions. So while I don't disparage Cloud of Daggers, I don't think it is a must-take spell.

Re: Arcane Ambush

If you hit 50% of the time, and the monster hits your friend 50% of the time, then the overall chance that the secondary effect of -2 attack will cause a miss is 50% chance of you hitting times 20% percentage of the enemy's chance of hitting that was lost = 10% chance of totally negating an enemy's attack, per attack made. Given typical enemy damage, this is quite serviceable. Its particularly nice against enemies with multiple attacks per round, ie, elites and solos, who aren't wizard's strong point otherwise. I consider it another serviceable spell. Also, synergizes great with Psychic Lock.

 

[keterys]

Right, but I only grade powers in relation to other powers within the same class. If Power X were given to two different classes, it would probably get two different grades, one for each class.

Fair - just not helpful for me from a standpoint of designing new powers or poaching existing powers In such a vacuum I would just order the powers for the class, so you'd know the #1 power was the best, these two were tied for #2, and that one is #3. And that other guy got booted out of the competition for either taking steroids or failing to pass the qualifiers.

Priest's Shield is also the only cleric melee at will that provides some benefit over a standard attack even if you haven't got an ally double teaming the monster you're fighting.

Yep.

You can't judge this power without taking it in the context of the Wintertouched and the... whatever its called I forget paragon feat. In that context, it is very good.

Each of the energy types has some notable advantages and I'm sure they'll even get more over time (Creep-y). Cold so far seems to have the best for raw output, though, it's true.

 

[KarinsDad]

You know, I did an entire post showing the math on this, and you're still going back to your 6% number, skipping several things. There's the synergy with Psychic Lock (which becomes a no-brainer if you have a psychic at-will power), the value increases when you target a foe weak to Will attacks, causing an attack to miss also allows the target to avoid status effects that occur on a hit, and the value increases considerably when the enemy uses attacks that affect multiple targets. All these things occur in addition to the power's damage capability - it's not an either/or situation.

That's true.

I was considering Heroic level. The 6% jumps to 11% at Paragon level with Psychic Lock. 1 Illusory Ambush out of 9. So, I can definitely see the value of switching Cloud of Daggers with Illusory Ambush once Psychic Lock is taken. However, there are also many other good Paragon level feats, so I suspect that it is the rare player who would take Psychic Lock at 11th level just for this (but it could happen).

And yes, against a given weaker will foe, this might be 7% that jumps to 13% once Psychic Lock is taken.

And, you are also right about attacks that affect multiple PCs. In fact, most creatures with Blasts including Dragons tend to have weaker Will saves in the MM. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe the designers wanted to give them a weak spot.

Furthermore, the value of IA is also based on how hard it is for the enemy to hit without that penalty. In an extreme case, when the enemy normally needs a 16+ to hit you, the -4 penalty of IA + Psychic Lock makes it so the enemy needs a natural 20. That seriously changes the average damage/round numbers.

Let's not talk about extreme cases. They're silly and illustrate nothing. The game is now (supposed to be) designed so that these types of extreme cases should rarely happen anymore.

As an example, the Tarrasque is so poorly designed that it is now the mathematical joke of the MM.

Fort 49, Will 32

What a freaking joke! What moron designer put together a creature with a 17 delta between two if its defenses?

That's 85% of the D20 ratio. This totally ignores the entire "the game is now mathematically balanced" mantra that the 4E designers were talking about last year.

I can see making a Tarrasque with high Fort and low Will. But, this is just plain ridiculous (which is also why using a Tarrasque in your examples make them seem less credulous for a serious discussion as compared to using more standard creatures).

On the other hand, several daily powers last multiple rounds - Flaming Sphere can be up for an entire combat. As for whether an encounter power is appropriate - I don't know about you, but I choose my encounter powers based upon which ones have the most widespread applications, because I know they will be used in every combat.

Every combat? Wow. You and I really do play the game differently. I use up my Per Encounter power (only have one at the moment, Force Orb) maybe 1 combat in 3.

Part of the reason for this is that it's rare to get two opponents standing side by side to use Force Orb, but it's not as rare to have 2 opponents 2 squares apart to use Scorching Burst. I'd rather hit 2 opponents with Scorching Burst than 1 opponent with Force Orb (because my chance to hit at least one of them is high and I also average more damage).

However, another part of this is that Force Orb only does an extra 4.5 points of damage if used against a single target vs. Cloud of Daggers. I prefer to save Force Orb for an opportune time in an encounter, or for those times when one encounter spills into another.

Don't get me wrong. If 2 or 3 opponents are just standing together right on top of each other, I'll let Force Orb loose. But, I don't use it most encounters.

The fact that it is not a Burst is a bit of a downside to it.

It's metagaming to catch your breath and patch up your wounds after a group of monsters has just tried to kill you? If Jim the mage knows he needs a brief breather to refresh his spells, and that there's goblins in the next room, do you think he's going to charge straight in, or take the 5 minutes to go in with his full capabilities?

It's metagaming to do it every single time. It's playing the rules, not roleplaying the characters.

As an example, in our last game, we ended the night with one of the NPCs running away and the rest dispatched. He is about 40 feet away, around a corner and the PCs are convinced that he is going to get reinforcements. So, we kept initiative in the same order and are chasing after him. Even if we run into a room of enemies, they should be unprepared enemies instead of ones waiting in ambush.

I'm fine with people resting between encounters. What I consider metagaming is people ALWAYS doing that, regardless of the circumstances and the motivations of their characters. If people do this, then yes they are metagaming. IMO.

No different than waiting for your powers, health, and endurance to all come back in City of Villains for a few minutes before taking on the next opponent 50 feet away every single time. If people do this for DND (every time), they might as well be playing a MMORPG.


Let me put it another way. In 3E, we almost NEVER rested 5 minutes from one room to the next in a dungeon. So, the ONLY reason to do so in 4E is the recovery rules. Hence, anytime that someone is having their PC act in a given way every single time due to these rules and not due to the motivations of the PCs, they are metagaming. They are playing the rules, not roleplaying the PCs. Granted, the motivations of the PCs should be to rest up often between encounters. But, not every single time regardless of circumstances. IMO.

 

[keterys]

I use and my players use their encounter powers pretty much every combat. As they should.

They don't necessarily "rest" 5 minutes, but they 'search room, search the bodies, and apply some bandages' and poof, 5 minutes pass and they get their powers back.

 

[Holy Bovine]

I use and my players use their encounter powers pretty much every combat. As they should.

They don't necessarily "rest" 5 minutes, but they 'search room, search the bodies, and apply some bandages' and poof, 5 minutes pass and they get their powers back.

My experience as well. And it has been like this for ages - my players always stop to loot and heal after a big fight.

Regarding Righteous Brand - would it be unwise then to build a cleric without a Str bonus? One player in my group has a very 'cloistered' cleric build and no STR bonus. We are converting from 3E so I'm allowing people to mix up their ability scores if they want. Would a +0 Str cleric still be good? Would it hamper the party too much if he had the other 3 at wills and not Righteous Brand (the PC is human)?