Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Tellerve]

I think the designers intended for Blood pulse to work so that it wasn't how many squares on the battlemat a large or larger creature left in terms of its overall space, but actual movement. An ogre doesn't have some crazy movement rating to it can move its 2x2 butt 16 squares or whatever diagonally somewhere. Instead it just moves 4 squares or whatever. Blood pulse I'm sure was meant to say that, so the ogre would get 4d6 damage, not the astronomical figures you guys are coming up with. It just makes common sense.

Tellerve

 

[Roxlimn]

Old Gumphrey:

Laser Clerics also have pathetic range for their at-wills, and their AoE options are generally worse for damage and status. Not that they're not awesome or anything, but staying put inside a Firestorm - I don't know if that's such a hot idea. At the very least, I'd like to move around to keep myself within Cover and probably outside the reach of deadly attacks of the short ranged variety.

Ahglock:

If something is balanced only because of a delicate web of abilities its much harder to see where the balance is and mistakes in balance in future supplements are easier to create.

So no a wizard should not have a base power that deals more damage to a single target as a rogue power. Since you are relying on some web of abilities to make the rogues abilities competitive, you limit rogue options when someone is trying to perform its base role. And you make it harder to balance future wizard abilities since you have to compare it to the web of possible rogue builds instead of just its powers.

Not at all. You make this power, you playtest it. If it checks out, it can then be used as a marker or benchmark - THIS much damage is more or less okay for this template of power.

It's not like there's some arcane formula of damage that contributes here. We have Weapon Focus, Sneak Attack, Backstabber, melee Leader powers, and some odds and ends like Light Blade Precision. No rocket science happening here.

There's no delicate web of abilities here. It's all quite obvious. When you design a Rogue power, you take Paragon Paths (all of them), Rogue powers, feats, and other such things into account.

YOU NEED TO DO THIS NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.

You seem to think that creating a microcosm of isolated relationships between the components of several comparative wholes will work. That's insane. That almost never works.

If I emphasize Fighter competence in combat over 4 spheres of influence and increase relative competence linearly in each of them, when combined, they increase logarithmically (and very quickly, too).

This was, in fact, the case for Wizard power progression and spell power scaling.

This does not work. Experience has shown designers that this does not work. We've ALL seen how catastrophic it can be. So no, it doesn't work like this, it shouldn't work like this, and it'll never work out well like this.

 

[Mongolia Jones]

No, blood pulse deals damage equal to 1d6 for every square it leaves. But powers are instantaneous, so it only deals damage once, unless multiple push, pull, or slide powers or effects are enacted upon the enemy as specified by the power.

But Goumindong said: "Not quite. Blood Pulse damages an enemy every for every square he leaves." (your post #230). Looks like separate damages... tastes like separate damages... smells like separate damages...

Now you are saying damage from powers is instantaneous... so what does that do for your Prismatic Spray argument doing separate damage? Or is that Prismatic Spray not instantaneous?

No, i am not. Maybe i should have continued and not figured that you would understand the implied portion of that. If a power deals no damage on a hit(I.E. sleep) then blood pulse [do you mean Bolstering Blood?] would not enhance that.

So what if you do damage on a "miss". What then. Is Bolstering Blood halved with the halving of the power damage, or is it not?

Blood pulse [again, do I assume you mean Bolstering Blood] is not a modifier, its better than a modifier, it applies when the power does damage.

So we agree then, Bolstering Blood is not a modifier to damage. Woo Hoo

When a power deals ongoing damage is it dealing damage? Yes it is, so blood pulse [again, Bolstering Blood] adds damage.

Page 169.

"When the power you use damages a target, you deal extra psychic damage equal to the damage you dealt yourself."

No!

Bolstering Blood makes no mention of any ongoing damage at all. All it says is at that "instance" if your power damages the target, you add your Bolstering Blood damage.

This is the second freaking time i have said orb specialization, oh, and every other freaking class feature and ability in the game

Your "Orb of Imposition" example specifically states: "...that has an effect that lasts until the subject succeeds on a saving throw." (pg 157)

The Bolstering Blood text makes no such references to it being more than an instantaneous effect.

How can you not figure this extra damage as damage? Does it not exist? Is it a figment of our imagination? Is it temporary damage that can't bring an enemy past 0? Is it fake in some way?

I don't follow you. All damage is damage, but the way you apply the damage is different depending on the damage.

If you subdivide damage types everything will become clear:
1. Instantaneous Damage: damage that a power or attack initially deals or instantaneous damage at a specific time in subsequent turns
2. Ongoing Damage: a fixed damage amount, no die rolls
3. Enhancement/Bonus Damage: an amount to modify a damage roll
4. Extra Damage: damage you apply if a set of criteria are met

The Prismatic Spray's static 15 damage/round (ongoing damage) cannot be modified in any way at all, it's a hard rule. When you were erroneously treating Bolstering Blood as an enhancement damage and adding it to the static 15 points/round you were breaking the rule of no modifications allowed on ongoing damage.

Bolstering Blood is extra damage, therefore you can use other extra damage abilities, such as Sneak Attack, to help guide you as to how the ability works.

No, i am not saying its a bonus or increase to damage rolls, i am saying that the extra damage is applied when the power deals damage as the freaking description says!

Yes, and you want to apply that damage more than once, when you yourself said: Goumindong said: "Powers that have durations greater than instantaneously say so explicitly..."

Bolstering Blood does not say so explicitly anywhere in the text.

You use Bolstering Blood just before you use a power, it only applies to that power, and it applies when that power deals damage.

No. Bolstering Blood applies to the targets of your power, not to the power itself.

An enhancement bonus applies to a power.

A sneak attack applies to the target of your attack, not the attack itself. but you cannot use sneak attack without the attack as a carrier.

Bolstering Blood is like a Sneak Attack (both extra damage types), they need a carrier power/attack to function themselves.

Show me an ability(not a power) that has a duration of less than "all the time" without saying so explicitly. Show me.

There is none. The durations are assumed to be instantaneous or once.

Arcane Riposte:
-Use: every time you make an opportunity attack
-Effect: cause damage once (assumed once)

Burning Blood:
-Use: every time you use a second wind
-Effect1: cause Con damage once (assumed once)
-Effect2: possible cause +Int (assumed once) and 5 ongoing (duration: save ends)

Spiral Tower Action:
-Use: every time you use an action point
-Effect: you gain a spent encounter power (assumed once)

and now for BB

Bolstering Blood:
-Use: once/turn you deal wound to self
-Effect: cause damage to targets (assumed once)

P.S. I love how the fighter only gets +1 to attack for the first roll he ever makes with his weapon because the power only functions once(your argument) and only functions when he makes an attack with the weapon choice he chose.(and not whenever, which incidentally means the same thing in this context because its an ability and not a power.)

That is an enhancement damage bonus, just like a pit fighter gets +wis to damage rolls.

Bolstering Blood is extra damage, it doesn't modify any damage roll, therefore you need to know the criteria of when to apply the damage.

Criteria for:
-Fighter Weapon Talent: add +1 when you roll a damage roll using weapon of choice.
-Bolstering Blood: add psychic damage when you injure self and cause damage with power.

What YOU want to do is cause extra damage with Bolstering Blood in successive rounds without causing more damage to yourself. The Bolstering Blood text doesn't say anything of the sort. There is not even slightest reference to any continuance to damage anywhere in the text.

There is no problem with with WoST gaining an encounter power using an action point and my argument. With my argument you would gain the encounter power and continue to have it. With yours you would gain the encounter power and then the next round when the effect ended you would no longer have it.

No.

What you are talking about in your flawed analogy is the lingering effects of the effect itself. If a paragon feature causes damage (effect) the damage stays on does not disappear the next successive rounds (lingering effect).

In WoST, the you get a spent encounter power (effect), the power stays till the end of the encounter (lingering effect).

With Storm Fury, you get to damage targets 5+wis (effect), the damage stays till end of encounter/permanent (lingering effect)

Its like a property on a weapon, its a class feature that has effect on the power, it modifies the power.

Nope, Bolstering Blood is "extra damage". Extra damage does not modify powers, they get added in addition to the damage of powers.

 

[Mongolia Jones]

Let's say that Prismatic Spray "damages a target" only once in the first round. What about the subsequent rounds? Does Bolstering Blood apply there, as well? Each instance of ongoing damage is tracked separately. Does that mean that they're separate instances of damage?

Well this is what we know about Bolstering Blood:
1. It's a add-on damage effect (extra damage) which deals damage independent of the power thats its carrier, just like hunter's Quarry.
2. Because BB doesn't increase the inherent power of the spell (i.e. it's not a enhancement bonus), then it doesn't matter what the spell or power does after you use it for the first time. BB is a one shot deal, just like every other extra damage ability.
3. It seems patently obvious to me that BB transfers damage "psychic-ly" only at the moment you wound yourself -> you also wound the targets. It's kinda like a voodoo doll, stick a needle in a doll, and instantly harm the guy that the doll represents. Wanna harm him again, stick another needle in. I can't see a wizard cause extra damage with BB, on successive rounds. There's nothing to suggest that BB fuels the power itself with psychic energy.

On damage:
There's no in game mechanic that you can point to that determines how many times a power damages opponents. You can only determine if you do cause damage (by the number of hit points lost) or don't cause damage.

Therefore, you can only apply BB when:
Criteria 1: You cause a wound to yourself just as you cast a spell (i.e. free action just b4 the power is used)
Criteria 2: a spell/power you use "damages" the target

Two Encounters. 1 AP, use of all Encounter Powers, 2 Dailies (1 per encounter), and then the damage estimate ends for that character.

If we figure 1 daily power and 4 encounter powers for the Cleric, he's got 5 rounds, 4 when he uses the Action Point. Of those rounds, he'll spend 1 minor action every round for 3 rounds doing healing. So 1-2 rounds of minor action continuance per encounter on the part of the Cleric?

I assume you are saying that I can use dailies and encounters as long as I have them available. That is to say, for example, if i have access to a paragon path feature that allows me to burn a AP for a spent encounter power, then I can use a 5th encounter power for that encounter, yes?

You gave an example of 1x daily and 4x encounters for a single battle, but I will have 4x dailies available total. For the second battle, will I be able to use the remaining unspent dailies, that is: 3x dailies and 4x encounters? Or is it going to be 1x daily (one of the 3 unspent ones) and 4x encounters? Another words, are you saying that i can only use 2 of my clerics 4 dailies that whole day?

Does that do it for the ground rules? You do your optimized Cleric first; do you mind? I like having a target to shoot for.

I think I need to clear up a few more but I have to go out for dinner. I'll be back later.

 

[AtomicPope]

So basically you are saying that your description is useless. Well, thanks for being useless.

You are failing to comprehend that it is not my definition. I'm not claiming ownership at all. You are claiming that definition comes from another source, which is demonstratably incorrect by merely reading the fourth edition Player's Handbook. I am simply acknowledging sole propriety of WotC concerning their intellectual property known as Dungeons and Dragons(tm). You said that WotC cannot give any definition for Controller and you are wrong. They can and have already given a definition (it's found on page 16 of the fourth editon Player's Handbook).

If you want to deny their right as sole proprietor then I suggest you take them to court. Don't have any illusions on the outcome. You don't stand a chance. It's their IP and they maintain control over all of the rights. You have none and control nothing.

So get your facts straight. The only valid definition for a Dungeons and Dragons(tm) Controller role has already been defined by Wizards of the Coast. No amount of flaming or trolling will grant you any legal powers over the Dungeons and Dragons(tm) gaming system.

Besides Prismatic Burst doing much more damage than Flame Strike you might want to look at fire burst(lvl 7 encounter power), Winters Wrath(lvl 7 encounter), wall of motherfreaking fire(lvl 9 daily that does 3d6+int/round OR MORE with NO SAVE ENDS), Stinking Cloud(lvl 5 daily that does 1d10+int TWICE and continues to do so ongoing with NO SAVE ENDS), or Force Orb(lv 1 Encounter)

Your comparisons are demonstratably incorrect.

Prismatic Burst (3D6+int)
Int +5
Implement +2
3D6 +10 (always round down, basic rule page 11 PHB)
That's 17pts damage

Flame Strike (2D10+wis)
Wis +5
Implement +2
2D10 +11
That's 18pts before ongoing damage.

You mentioned Winter's Wrath. It's the same range, same AoE, affects friendly targets (which means you'll just help out the enemy), and also does less damage both in dice and ongoing. Flamestrike is 2D10+Stat+(5+Stat Ongoing) opposed to Stat+2D8+Stat. Flamestrike causes more damage initially and more damage over time.

A hit with Stinking Cloud is 2d10[avg 11]+12 damage for 33 average damage(on the first round), A miss is 1d10+6 damage on the first round.

Second round its another 1d10+6, third round its another 1d10+6...

Do you actually play D&D? You realize that monsters can move right? There is nothing in the spell that prevents a monster from leaving. Furthermore, if a monster leaves before it's turn (Leaders can do this BTW) then they only take 1D10+Int+Implement. Also, all they have to do is hug a PC and they're safe. Stinking Cloud affects friendlies. A fact about Wizard Spells that you conveniently ignore time and time again. When spells affect allies the Monsters can seek refuge among them.

 

[Marshall]

Not at all. You make this power, you playtest it. If it checks out, it can then be used as a marker or benchmark - THIS much damage is more or less okay for this template of power.

Exactly! You balance the power against other powers of its role and level. Period. Thats it. If the power matches that category it will be balanced no matter what class/paragon/feat features you tack on to it.

It's not like there's some arcane formula of damage that contributes here. We have Weapon Focus, Sneak Attack, Backstabber, melee Leader powers, and some odds and ends like Light Blade Precision. No rocket science happening here.

You're right, because the system applies those same bonuses to what should be a similar level of power.

The problem with Firestorm is that it gives a leader the ability to, not only, step into the controllers role, but do it better than the controller does at that level or below.

There's no delicate web of abilities here. It's all quite obvious. When you design a Rogue power, you take Paragon Paths (all of them), Rogue powers, feats, and other such things into account.

YOU NEED TO DO THIS NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.

As long as they never publish anything beyond the PHB, that works.
We've got what? Two months before that paradigm collapses?

 

[AtomicPope]

AtomicPope:

Post arguments, not adhominems; whatever delaying tactics or ignoring tactics might be occuring is obvious - you do not have any need to comment on it.

You should take your own advice.

Level 7 Encounter Powers and level 3 Encounter Powers don't feature area damage for Devoted Clerics. Does Firestorm do enough damage to make up for that, I wonder? If we layer on all level 1-7 Encounter Powers as area effects plus the level 9 Daily, who will win?

Area of effect is not the only facet of controllers. As described on page 16 of the PHB they also, "weaken, confuse, and delay" which would include:
Command - Lvl 3 Enc that dazes and either slides the target or knocks it prone.
Searing Light - Lvl 7 Enc causes Blindness.

By win I assume you mean controlling? D&D isn't a game that can be "won." That fact hasn't changed since its inception. Since you brought up Lvl 7 Enc powers it's important to point out that Wizards don't get access to Blindness powers until 13th level, six levels after Clerics.

 

[Goumindong]

Lies, damn lies, and statistics

The instant you quote me saying the exact same thing as what I am talking about and then say it means something else is the instant where it becomes clear that you are not interested in having a meaningful debate on the issue at hand.

You just quoted me saying the exact same thing, literally the exact same thing and claiming they mean different things. You quoted me correcting Roxlimn in how he tallied the damage from bolstering blood and then said that that quote agreed with Roxlimn.

Go back to COAD, it suits you well.

You are failing to comprehend that it is not my definition

Its irrelevant whether or not its "your" definition, "Wizard's" definition, or "Walt Disney's" definition. What is only relevant is whether or not its effective. Throwing out a bunch of legal about ownership means nothing.

Wizards both have more frequency and severity in AoE damage and status effect creation.

Prismatic Burst (3D6+int)

I am sorry, i was talking about the prismatic power that you were referencing, the one that dazes, does 2d6+int twice +5 ongoing damage twice.

But Prismatic Burst is a fine example since it slams flame strike. Where flame strike will do 33 average damage once per day, Prismatic burst will do 17 average damage 4 times per day, once each encounter.

You mentioned Winter's Wrath. It's the same range, same AoE, affects friendly targets (which means you'll just help out the enemy), and also does less damage both in dice and ongoing. Flamestrike is 2D10+Stat+(5+Stat Ongoing) opposed to Stat+2D8+Stat. Flamestrike causes more damage initially and more damage over time.

All the other ones i mentioned are encounter powers. I get to use them each and every encounter, that is roughly 4 times as frequently as you get to use your dailies.

Do you actually play D&D? You realize that monsters can move right?

Yes, you realize that that is one of the things that make Wizard AoEs so strong and Cleric AoEs so terrible right? You can move Stinking Cloud up to 12 spaces per turn(double move action, which loses you your normal attack unfortunately). You can move it around your friends and hit your enemies. When enemies run away you can move it to follow them.

And all the other Wizard AoE's offer area control in the form of immobilization, dazing, stunning, difficult terrain in both their dailies and encounters. Which means enemies are less likely to be able to get out of range.

Yes, and you want to apply that damage more than once, when you yourself said: Goumindong said: "Powers that have durations greater than instantaneously say so explicitly..."

Bolstering Blood does not say so explicitly anywhere in the text.

BOLSTERING BLOOD IS NOT A POWER IT IS A CLASS FEATURE. GOOD LORD HOW HARD IS THIS TO COMPHREHND?

For more information please see the preface to the section "Classes" where it defines what a power is and how to read them.

 

[Ahglock]

Wow, this thread feels really ugly now.

 

[Goumindong]

Wow, this thread feels really ugly now.

Sorry, but i will not sit back and let someone lie, distort the truth, and ignore relevant points over and over again without bringing it up. If you don't want to get called out for doing those things, the solution is to not do those things.

E.G. There is nothing wrong with your posting, you place a different and oft perceived erroneous value on product scalability, but you aren't lying and distorting the truth. Such, we can have a reasoned debate.