So THAT's why Regdar gets no love...

[BryonD]

Because Jozan and Hennet weren't enough white human dudes? What you even talking about? Kerwyn too. Jesus, how many white human men do we need exactly before it's not "peeing in marketing cornflakes"? I guess "more than three!". Seems like your position is untenable to me.

His position is perfectly tenable. They needed exactly one. But they needed that one to be the classic warrior frontman. Not because a woman or any other race would not be accepted, but because a white male would be the most universally accepted amongst the target audience. Yeah, there are lots of other demographics, no one is doubting that. But if you don't think young white males are greatly over-represented amongst gamers with respect to their pure population numbers, then I think you haven't been around much.

The only other optimal marketing choice would have been a white female in skimpy clothes, and that would have been much worse.

And truly, once you get past all the PC BS, it isn't even about any kind of racial quality comparison. It is about making it as absolutely easy as possible for the would be customer to look at a cover or walk past a stand up and see their self in the picture. A young white male could think Will Smith's Hancock is the absolute coolest hero character ever to grace the screen and still find it easier to identify with Peter Parker. Perception of relative racial quality has nothing to do with it.

To the contrary, I get sick of the BS "more enlightened than thou" attitude that tries to force social injustice into anything and everything, regardless of how misplaced that view may be.

 

[boerngrim]

You know, this is one of those things where I was always completely in the dark. I never looked too closely at the cover art when it depicted to iconics, so I always assumed that Regdar was black. Even after 'playing' the interactive DVD, I still assumed he was black, and I was totally cool with it.

My personal preferences are usually to play the meat shield, usually as a white guy, but not for any particular reason. One of my friends in a D20 Modern game I ran played a black man. He's not black in real life. Another one of my friends always plays a female with red hair in any game we play, whether it be an RPG or an MMO. Yet another friend of mine always plays a male character who is quite a bit older (I think the median age he plays is about 45). My wife likes to play axe wielding foul-mouthed dwarves.

My point here is that I agree with Monte that players can and do see beyond themselves, and that it is absolutely a good thing to use characters of a variety of ethnicities and races as iconics.

I thought Regdar was racially ambiguous, but if I had to call it, I would have said he looked black in the PHB. When I watched the Scourge of Worlds interactive DVD, Regdar definitely seemed like a black man to me. I thought that was cool.

 

[Cadfan]

Ah, someone else has already posted the D&D PSA link. My advice- start with the first one. Later ones build a bit on inside jokes established in the earlier episodes.

Just to throw fuel on the fire, may I remind everyone that we just had a lengthy thread in which multiple people repeatedly explained to me (I've a thick skull, they had to keep explaining and I still don't get it) that default D&D ought not to have black people in european styled armor?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I know there are other iconics. It just ticks me off that a developer just HAS to point out that he didn't want the main character to be a white male, and it must really piss him off, as he is still bothered by it. Political correctness gone mad, or racism?

Did you read the first part of Monte's post, where, for years the only characters that could be depicted on the front of a TSR module was a white male?

Did you read the middle part, where he ticked off the reasons why this was a stupid policy?

Did you read the end part, where he said that there was an agreement that this nonsense was dead and gone, and marketing -- because they believe that white dudes will only pick up products featuring white dudes, which raises some interesting questions about rap music's popularity in the suburbs -- forced it on them?

This isn't political correctness: This is fighting against a wrong-headed and stupid marketing-driven decision about what appears in your D&D books.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So who do you hand the "Big lug with a big sword," job to, exactly? If you give it to anybody other than the white guy you get accused of racist overtones by depicting "persons of color" as unintelligent / savage / defined by physicality.

I call. Show me such a complaint by someone other than random_usenet_flamer_01.

I don't buy this argument at all, especially since Monte, who was there, says that it's because marketing doesn't believe white guys will buy a product not featuring white guys prominently.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Surely, some compromise can be found? An introductory book full of cheeserific iconic characters that we can all laugh at?

I LOVED the 1E Rogues Gallery. I would love to see something comparable, featuring the best-realized playtest campaign characters.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

This thread got really weird really fast.

There wasn't any "reverse racism." They were just tired of always being mandated to put the big white male lead everywhere, so they finally said "Screw it, this is BS. We're making it a dwarf."

Then marketing said "HAH HAH OR SO YOU THOUGHT!"

So the disgruntled artists did what disgruntled people across the centuries have always done - they were snippy little pricks about it and made sure the marketing poster child was killed and maimed as much as they could.

I don't really see the "reverse racism." Marketing was the one demanding racism/sexism, and the artists were irritated and showed their disgust by humiliating the character they hated. if you see "reverse racism" in this, good lord do you have too much time on your hands.

 

[Piratecat]

A little perspective, folks; please don't drag in racism where a marketing decision was made to circumvent the creative team. It's a different kettle of fish, and we'd rather not have the thread shoot off on a tangent.

 

[Imaro]

This...

When I worked at TSR, there was always basically a truism in cover art--the central figure had to be a white male. Most of us actually helping to create the cover art, either by conceiving it or actually creating it, hated that kind of outlook, but the powers that be believed that our audience was entirely white males and they needed someone that they could identify with on the cover.

Now my question is... isn't this a self perpetuating attitude? If you believe white males will be turned off from a game by having a different ethnicity grace the cover of a book... well logic says the opposite is also true. I mean if you aren't trying to grow or expand your market... then it makes perfect sense. However if you are, then not so much.

As a black gamer it disturbs me that, while I hadn't given much thought to this issue until I happened upon Todd Lockwood's comments, it was a conscious decision on the part of marketing to take this approach. I ask myself if I and those like me are looked at as so marginal that we are not a consideration in marketing the game, then why support the game. Especially when there are so many that do in this day and age.

I will admit, it's kind of soured me a little towards WotC and D&D in general. On the other hand I can make a conscious choice to support companies who apparently, through their decisions, feel that I am not so marginal when it comes to being a part of their customer base as to not even be a consideration.

 

[Ahglock]

I consider things like the Iconics and the cover to be almost 100% a marketing decision. I really don't think the "creative team" should be involved in it at all.