What direction will D&D head in?

[rounser]

rules which are meant to reflect the physical reality of the game world can hamper roleplaying.

Guh?

What's the foundation for this argument?

 

[hong]

Guh?

What's the foundation for this argument?

Action movies. Like WoW.

 

[rounser]

Action movies. Like WoW.

That's no argument. That's just saying "they handwaved it and got away with it, so RPGs can too."

In many cases, no, they can't. RPGs rely on a cinema of the mind, and the mind pays attention to rules.

 

[hong]

That's no argument. That's just saying "they handwaved it and got away with it, so RPGs can too."

In many cases, no, they can't. RPGs rely on a cinema of the mind, and the mind pays attention to rules.

You have plenty of rules to facilitate the things that you do in action movies such as WoW.

 

[rounser]

You have plenty of rules to facilitate the things that you do in action movies such as WoW.

We're not talking about action movies or WoW, here, and what works in them. We're talking about D&D, and what works in that.

D&D's rules are naked and highly visible to the players. WoW can hide a lot of it's rules so you don't have to think about them. Action movies don't have rules at all.

It's apples and oranges - pretending they're equivalent just sounds like special pleading.

There really is no argument, is there? It's just a case of "Look what they got away with handwaving! Maybe we can to!"

 

[hong]

We're not talking about action movies or WoW, here, and what works in them. We're talking about D&D, and what works in that.

There is no reason why you can't do action movies like WoW in D&D. In fact, I bet many ppl have been doing that for years.

D&D's rules are naked and highly visible to the players. WoW can hide a lot of it's rules so you don't have to think about them. Action movies don't have rules at all.

Sure they do. That's what ppl complain about when they don't follow the rules.

It's apples and oranges - pretending they're equivalent is just special pleading.

They may not be equivalent, but they sure look a lot alike.

 

[rounser]

There is no reason why you can't do action movies like WoW in D&D. In fact, I bet many ppl have been doing that for years.

Not what we're talking about. Good attempt to duck and weave when cornered, though!

Sure they do. That's what ppl complain about when they don't follow the rules.

Intriguing. Still irrelevant to D&D.

They may not be equivalent, but they sure look a lot alike.

Only if you engage in special pleading.

There are similarities, but also HUGE differences. Computers don't have to believe in the validity of the game they're running to be motivated to run it, for instance.

 

[hong]

Not what we're talking about. Good attempt to duck and weave when cornered, though!

I am not sure what you thought we were talking about. Perhaps it was a generic food metaphor.

Intriguing. Still irrelevant to D&D.

Perfectly relevant to D&D, which is attempting to simulate the rules that govern action movies such as WoW.

Only if you engage in special pleading.

I do not think this means what you think it means.

 

[rounser]

I am not sure what you thought we were talking about. Perhaps it was a generic food metaphor.

Well, I know that some of us weren't talking about "D&D's ability to represent the popcorn logic nonsenses of an action movie", homing in on exactly the stuff that challenges suspension of disbelief about a movie, and then holding that up as a virtue.

No. It's not a virtue, it's just handwaving to support a media format - handwaving that we're arguing that D&D cannot get away with, because it is not a movie, and you can see the rules. There are no special effects or cries of "Indy! Grab the rope!" to distract you long enough from the fact that something doesn't make sense.

Because it's apples and oranges. D&D's spec is not "simulate an action movie". It would be no more accurate to say that it's something like "simulate a fantasy world", or "simulate a fantasy novel". D&D is not a movie, novel, worldsim, computer game, nor boardgame, but is "something like" all of these. But pretend it's a movie, and you may find it becomes a lousy worldsim. That's the balance we're talking about which is being disrupted.

And there are a lot of idiosyncracies and handwaving that a movie or MMORPG or novel can get away with and D&D can't, and vice versa, because they are totally different media!

Pretending they are the same, and that the same treatment of handwaving can be applied to all of them, is just flat out wrong IMO.

Perfectly relevant to D&D, which is attempting to simulate the rules that govern action movies such as WoW.

No it's not.

I do not think this means what you think it means.

Oh no, I think it describes your "argument" exactly. "Action movies are exempt from handwaving this, so D&D is too." Um...no, it's not, and you're ignoring a tonne of details to equate them.

 

[hong]

Well, I know that some of us weren't talking about "D&D's ability to represent the popcorn logic nonsenses of an action movie", homing in on exactly the stuff that challenges suspension of disbelief about a movie, and then holding that up as a virtue.

I think you need to watch better action movies.

And there are a lot of idiosyncracies and handwaving that a movie or MMORPG or novel can get away with and D&D can't, and vice versa, because they are totally different media!

That's what a good DM is for, to make sure the railroad that gives meaning and significance to what would otherwise be random acts of violence stays intact.

Oh no, I think it describes your argument exactly.

No, not really.