D&D 4E 4e's Inorganic Loot System: Yay or Nay?

[CountPopeula]

I can't help but respond to this once again since my previous response garnered a warning:

This is an idiotic strawman argument that needs to die in a fire. All it does is serve to obscure the true nature of verisimilitude, which would be "you get everything Orcus is carrying, including a bunch of loot that he was keeping back in his lair." It adds nothing--nothing!--to this thread, and it paints the people who like an organic loot system as jerks. This is, of course, no better than painting anyone who likes an inorganic loot system to be an uncreative dullard, but I can't help but imagine that my response--which was designed to demonstrate the nature of CountPopeula's strawman--was somehow less well-received than his own.

The reason I like the 3e treasure system is because it makes sense for players to pick up the loot that monsters drop. There's no reason a monster wielding a +5 longsword of doom should not actually drop that but instead give a +4 rod of pew-pewing.

Ahh, it's much clearer now that you simply have failed to understand how the parcel system works. And monster design in 4e really makes a +5 longsword on a powerful foe of high level fairly useless anyway, so there's less of a reason for him to have one.

The thing you're missing isn't that players won't or even shouldn't be able to take the magic items an NPC is using, it's that A) NPCs and monsters are built to not need magic items in the first place and B) The parcel system isn't inorganic, it's just not designed in a vacuum.

I can see your argument, though, although I am annoyed at being accused of making a strawman argument when your position is based on an incorrect understanding of the rules. I wasn't making an argument based on a false and easier to argue position, I was just making the assumption that you understood how the rules worked before making a post complaining about them.

 

[CountPopeula]

I see a few comments in this thread where people talk about how parcels don't screw with versimilitude, without actually understanding what's being talked about. The issue raised by the OP (and in the past in similar discussions) was that the players always finding items perfectly tailored to their needs, and no other items, breaks some people's suspension of disbelief.

Yeah, but that's not what he's arguing, apparently. He's arguing that the world is now full of magic items that the NPCs are using and the PCs can't take, which is patently false and based on an incorrect understanding of how the system is supposed to work. It is his understanding that if he gives a monster a +3 longsword, after the PCs kill the monster, the longsword magically transforms itself into a +4 short bow. Where this belief came from.... i don't know. But it wasn't in the Dungeon Master's Guide, that's for sure.

 

[Snotboy]

Anyway, the DMG system is a big help to new DMs I think. Encounter design depends on a baseline of player effectiveness, and magic items are a big part of that. With that in mind, the DMG method of handing out magic items encourages DMs and players to work together to make sure that everything the players find is worthwhile and contributes to the group's effectiveness. More experienced world-builder-type DMs can bend, break, and otherwise do whatever they want with the item handouts, the return on selling items, the return on disenchanting items, and so on. The game books however should first and foremost cover what's important to less experienced DMs.

This is basically the impression that I'm getting, the more I think about it. The parcel system is mainly meant for DMs who are learning their way--training wheels as it were.

As for expected treasure vs verisimilitude, that's all up to DM creativity. Consider the following hooks:

The goblin leader has been organizing effective raids terrorizing the countryside, and the town guard is powerless against the threat. The leader is known to openly brandish a glaive taken from by an eladrin guard captain/town leader/your father, whom he slew, taunting those who flee before him with his gleaming trophy.

The wizard is able to enchant a serviceable (same level, per enchant item/purchase rules) flaming sword for you, but it's not quite complete. Now, he knows a way to really supercharge it (level +3 or more)--it involves a performing small ritual he can put on a scroll (fluff), and plunging the sword into the heart of a freshly killed red dragon. It just so happens he knows where one that has been vexing him lairs, and if the party so chooses to use that one in particular, he'll consider the improvement of the weapon 'on the house'.

Neither of those involve the item being shoehorned into a treasure trove, popping from a monsters corpse completely out of context.

 

[malacapricornis]

If you are running your games in such a way so that the party has X amount of power at level Y do you really prefer collecting and selling items at Ye Olde Magike Shoppe in order to get gold to purchase/craft items you need just because a random table told you to?

 

[Psychic Robot]

Ahh, it's much clearer now that you simply have failed to understand how the parcel system works. And monster design in 4e really makes a +5 longsword on a powerful foe of high level fairly useless anyway, so there's less of a reason for him to have one.

The thing you're missing isn't that players won't or even shouldn't be able to take the magic items an NPC is using, it's that A) NPCs and monsters are built to not need magic items in the first place and B) The parcel system isn't inorganic, it's just not designed in a vacuum.

I can see your argument, though, although I am annoyed at being accused of making a strawman argument when your position is based on an incorrect understanding of the rules. I wasn't making an argument based on a false and easier to argue position, I was just making the assumption that you understood how the rules worked before making a post complaining about them.

~edited~

4e assumes that monsters have magical equipment/magical-equivalent equipment that is already included in their statblocks, hence the existence of the magic threshold. They don't drop this equipment upon death. So instead of having monsters with realistic equipment--because magical equipment certainly isn't rare in D&D--that could be sold, the developers just instituted a ban on such things.

 

[Spatula]

Yeah, but that's not what he's arguing, apparently.

It's what this thread started out talking about. The issue with where monsters get their bonuses from is a seperate, albeit somewhat-related, topic.

----
The other metagamey bit with the treasure parcels, not brought up in this particular thread yet, is that the system makes searching for hidden treasure a pointless exercise. The players are expected to get the parcel loot anyway, so why should they waste time looking for it?

 

[JDillard]

The other metagamey bit with the treasure parcels, not brought up in this particular thread yet, is that the system makes searching for hidden treasure a pointless exercise. The players are expected to get the parcel loot anyway, so why should they waste time looking for it?

Because it's fun to do so? Killing, looting, searching for secret bits of stuff is standard D&D, and it's fun. The DM's "magic curtain" of what's actually going on behind the scenes is rarely apparent to the average player, if it's done even halfway decently. Hell, even being a player myself and knowing about treasure parcels and how they work, I don't bug my DM about loot distribution. I just play and have fun and expect him to work out the details.

If you really want a good reason to, despite that, how about this: Because treasure parcels are spread out over the entire level, and if the DM decides you "find" your sword +3 in the first encounter of the level rather than the seventh because you searched somewhere creatively, then you've got your neat new sword for 6 more encounter than you otherwise would.

 

[CountPopeula]

The arrogance and condescension in your post only highlights your trollish, inappropriate comments earlier in the thread that have undoubtedly gone ignored.

4e assumes that monsters have magical equipment/magical-equivalent equipment that is already included in their statblocks, hence the existence of the magic threshold. They don't drop this equipment upon death. So instead of having monsters with realistic equipment--because magical equipment certainly isn't rare in D&D--that could be sold, the developers just instituted a ban on such things.

I don't see where it assumes monsters have magical equipment. It assumes they have a competence level commensurate to their level of menace, sure, but I don't see how it assumes they're using magic items. You're making a literal reading into a general abstraction made for game balance. Having a magic threshold of +2 doesn't assume that every piece of gear the NPC is carrying is a magical item with a +2 bonus. It's a rules abstraction made for game balance that reflects a system taking into account competence levels vs. inherent magical power.

And quit calling me a troll because you're mad that you got in trouble for calling me an idiot. It's starting to try my nerves.

 

[Mort]

The other metagamey bit with the treasure parcels, not brought up in this particular thread yet, is that the system makes searching for hidden treasure a pointless exercise. The players are expected to get the parcel loot anyway, so why should they waste time looking for it?

Because the game has a DM. If the DM sees the players are shirking basic common sense searches because they have some weird entitlement issues, he is perfectly capable of of shorting them on treasure.

Just because 4e introduced a handy way for the DM to keep track of player wealth and to balance that wealth does not mean the DM cannot impose consequences where he sees fit.

As to the OP - as with many things in 4e an extra level of abstraction is in order (some love this some hate this). It's not necessarily that monsters have x magical equipment it's that they function at a certain level of effectiveness - basically some monsters are just that good - magical equipment or no. Again it's just a tool for the DM to provide an effective challenge for the party.

 

[The Little Raven]

The players are expected to get the parcel loot anyway, so why should they waste time looking for it?

They're expected to get it for overcoming challenges. Finding a secret passage or compartment certainly qualifies as being part of a challenge, no?