Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Switchback]

If the kobold isn't an important part of the encounter, why not make it a minion as well?

It's an extreme example and you're probably right, since we have choices about kobolds we could use one that makes the situation less disconcerting.

I believe the stationary object + Minion combos are probably more worthwhile since concrete objects in the world have more definite governing rules.

If I am level 10, fighting Legion Hellguards (minion 11) next to a wooden cage (med size 20 HP) where one of my buddies is trapped and I want to explode it open and damage the guards at the same time, I can cast Thunderwave into the area and it might take 3 or 4 rounds to blast a darn wooden cage open, but yet the spell might be disposing 2 or 3 Hellguards every round in the process, killing them all before my friend is free.

Now back at level 1, faced with a similar situation, the Wooden Cage would take roughly the same amount of rounds to blast apart, but if normal Orc (Raiders) were the guards, there is a good chance all of them would far outlast the cage being busted apart.

It doesn't make sense here that in 10 levels my power has grown drastically in relation to how fast I can kill supposedly tougher creatures (the Hellguards) but my power has grown in tiny contrast against the wooden cage. I am maybe doing only 2 more damage per Thunderwave to the object.

When Minions are kept neatly segregated in encounters, it is easier to abstract the how’s and why’s of them. But when things get more complex, incongruence in the mechanic begins to show.

 

[underfoot007]

opppppssss

 

[The Little Raven]

Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the latter as the game-school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school...As a realistic simulation of the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure.... Those who desire to creature and populate imaginary worlds.... who seek relaxation with fascinating game, and who generally believe that games should be fun, not work, will hopefully find this system to their taste.

Despite my distaste for many of the man's game design philosophies and writing style, sometimes he said things that were pure golden truth.

 

[GoLu]

I believe the stationary object + Minion combos are probably more worthwhile since concrete objects in the world have more definite governing rules.

Ah, I see what you're getting at now. And you're right. This is one of the areas that abstract damage falls apart.

See, on a living creature, a high damage attack (or at least high damage compared to hit points) isn't necessarily "bigger" or more "forceful". It might just be a perfectly targeted shot through the unarmored armpit and into the heart. But against inanimate objects, that kind of excuse doesn't work so well.

There are similar problems with falling damage and, yes, minion hit points. Or maybe it's non-minion hit points; those are the guys that shrug off sword wounds. In any case, it's one of those things that works well enough in a game, but doesn't stand up well to close scrutiny.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Why does the housecat get a minimum damage of 1 when the PCs don't?

1d4 - 4 = 0 or less. Minimum damage is 0. Therefore, housecats never deal damage and can't kill anything with hit points.

 

[DM_Blake]

To answer the OP:

I think the best way to handle minions is to not treat them any differently than non-minions.

Example:
The room contains 3 ogres and 4 ogre minions. To the ogres, they are 7 ogres - they cannot tell that some are minions and some are not. If one ogre starts a fight with an ogre minion, it's an even fight (neither is a minion). In fact, there is no difference at all.

In game application, this means the room really has 7 ogres (no minions) until the players get there and start to fight them.

That's the critical part. They are not minions UNTIL they start fighting the player characacters.

Now the PCs arrive and they start fighting.

First, Joe attacks an ogre and rolls a hit for 12 HP. The DM knows this is an ogre minion but neither Joe nor the ogre knows this fact. Because the ogre minion only has 1 HP, the DM describes Joe's attack as "Your sword cleaves deeply into the ogre's chest, rupturing internal organs. The ogre (minion) collapses in a fountain of blood."

Next round, Joe attacks another ogre and rolls a hit for 12 HP. The DM knows this is not a minion, so he describes Joe's attack as "You slash viciously at the ogre's chest, but he twists away, avoiding most of the damage. Your sword scrapes across the ogre's chest drawing blood and leaving a little wound that won't be too hard for such a big ogre to shrug off."

What happened was that Joe made two virtually identical attacks at two virtually identical ogres. One ogre took the full brunt of the attack and died instantly. The other ogre dodged and avoided most of the damage.

But as for the sense of verisimilitude througout the world, those ogres were, for all intents and purposes, identical non-minion ogres right up until Joe's sword strokes landed.

As for the rest of those ogre's lives up until that point, they were just 7 ogres. When they marauded through the farmlands, the 4 minion ogres were not felled by the first farmer with a pitchfork. Not in the least. Because they were ogres then, and they were always ogres.

The only difference between a minion and a real creature is how many times the cinematic heroes (the PCs) have to whack them to end their pathetic lives - right up until then they are all the same.

 

[Dausuul]

It's an extreme example and you're probably right, since we have choices about kobolds we could use one that makes the situation less disconcerting.

I believe the stationary object + Minion combos are probably more worthwhile since concrete objects in the world have more definite governing rules.

If I am level 10, fighting Legion Hellguards (minion 11) next to a wooden cage (med size 20 HP) where one of my buddies is trapped and I want to explode it open and damage the guards at the same time, I can cast Thunderwave into the area and it might take 3 or 4 rounds to blast a darn wooden cage open, but yet the spell might be disposing 2 or 3 Hellguards every round in the process, killing them all before my friend is free.

Now back at level 1, faced with a similar situation, the Wooden Cage would take roughly the same amount of rounds to blast apart, but if normal Orc (Raiders) were the guards, there is a good chance all of them would far outlast the cage being busted apart.

It doesn't make sense here that in 10 levels my power has grown drastically in relation to how fast I can kill supposedly tougher creatures (the Hellguards) but my power has grown in tiny contrast against the wooden cage. I am maybe doing only 2 more damage per Thunderwave to the object.

When Minions are kept neatly segregated in encounters, it is easier to abstract the how’s and why’s of them. But when things get more complex, incongruence in the mechanic begins to show.

At 1st level, you're not very fast with your Thunderwave. The orc raiders see you casting it, and they have time to brace themselves against the impact. At 11th level, however, you can fire off a Thunderwave before the Hellguards have a chance to react. You have also learned to focus the blast so that instead of just bludgeoning people to death, it shakes them like a lion with its prey, snapping their necks.

All this refined technique is lost on the wooden cage, which just sits there and takes the punishment either way.

(I will admit that the system doesn't hold up as well when inanimate objects and other such things are brought into it, but that's hardly new. Inanimate objects have always been the toughest thing for the hit point system to explain. The only way it ever worked was if you assumed hit points meant sheer physical toughness, and all the fluff about luck and rolling with blows and divine favor was so much blather.)

 

[RigaMortus2]

Also, the reason they have 1hp is so that effects like Temporary Hit points will stack on them. In which case, you will then have to do some bookkeeping if an attack can't a minion out who has 1hp +x temp hps.

 

[Hejdun]

My biggest problem with minions is that a level 1 wizard can automatically insta-kill even the toughest minions in the MM. Knowing that fact makes it hard for me to believe, for instance, that minions are ever a threat to anything.

Heck, it's possible (though maybe unlikely) that even if the minion wins init and goes first, it still can't kill the wizard before the wizard kills it.

And a 5th level cleric can insta-kill up to 9 minions, even the highest level ones.

 

[amysrevenge]

My biggest problem with minions is that a level 1 wizard can automatically insta-kill even the toughest minions in the MM. Knowing that fact makes it hard for me to believe, for instance, that minions are ever a threat to anything.

Heck, it's possible (though maybe unlikely) that even if the minion wins init and goes first, it still can't kill the wizard before the wizard kills it.

And a 5th level cleric can insta-kill up to 9 minions, even the highest level ones.

You do still have to hit them, right? Anyone more than 8 or 10 levels above you and you'll need a 20 just to hit...