Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[radferth]

Seems to me it would have been better to describe minions has having Low hit points, rather than 1; as 1 HP seems to imply to many folks (such as myself) as near-death fragility, but that is just an editorial decision.

 

[Goumindong]

That means what exactly in relation to the fact that Minions exist in the game world outside of combat? Which is the point I am making.

What fact?

I don't think we are in disagreement about the way Minions should generally be used in encounters. However, the way you suggested playing sort of fast and loose with minions or doing bait and switches with other related monster types, would be suspect at the least, and downright dishonest or unworkable in some cases.

There has never been any bait and switch. NPCs are not PCs they play by different rules.

I.e. It might indeed be possible to catch a Legion Devil on a errand or messenger mission and if it were engaged, there is simply no way to morph it into anything other than it is, because all Legion Devils are minions. There is no such thing as a standard version and they look entirely different physically than other demons.

And? At that point the Legion Devil is essentially a non-combat NPC to be interrogated by the PCs and not an encounter. The same as if you run into a goblin at a bar and he buys you a drink(well, not quite the same, but close enough). If the Legion Devil is caught by NPCs then you are back to the NPC on NPC violence solution and the outcome is whatever you want.

Likewise, if players chased a minion out of one battle and into a building where it hid, such that it triggered a entirely new encounter, that creature should remain a minion when it is found and the new battle is begun, regardless if the players knew it was one beforehand. The DM knew and should retain consistency and regard for what these separate monsters roles are in the world.

If players chase a minion out of one battle and into a building where it hid it would only be a new encounter if they stopped and rested for 5 minutes. Searching for the minion is not resting and so would be the same encounter. If they rest the minion gets away.

Either way, routing your enemy is still defeating them and the hit points of the minion are, at that point, irrelevant.

My earlier example of the housecat was just that, one example of how pretty much anything in the game world that can do 1 point of damage could spring up in any session and really have your minions on the spot. I'd just like to have it sorted beforehand.

Your housecat example was thoroughly shot down as has this one. Every terrain feature that does damage requires an attack roll unless its a zone or conjuration created by the players.

 

[The Little Raven]

While contemplating minion rules, I suddenly recalled that AD&D had a 'minion' mechanic as well. It clearly operated by different rules, but it had the same goal - allowing the party to 'mow through' low level opponents.

That's because AD&D, just like 4e, was not intended to be a simulation of the realm of make-believe, because as a simulation, it's a dismal failure. It's meant to be a game.

 

[FadedC]

I conceded that lower HPs, lower AC and smaller healing surges make wizards hard to kill? Wonder what thread you've been reading.

The thread where where you claim over and over how stupid I am for thinking wizards could have a decent armor class, and then ran away with your tail between your legs when challenged to support your belief, and given actual math by me and other posters.

In this case your seem to theorize that at mid level or higher a wizard can be actually killed in one round by 8 minions. I'll challenge you again to do the math and show me how that's possible assuming average or even above average rolls.

 

[Dausuul]

In this case your seem to theorize that at mid level or higher a wizard can be actually killed in one round by 8 minions. I'll challenge you again to do the math and show me how that's possible assuming average or even above average rolls.

Well, a 26th-level wizard with Con 10 could be killed in one round by 8 lich vestiges (26th-level minions). They'd all have to hit, though, and the odds of that happening are not great.

 

[Celtavian]

Like this?

No. Gandalf isn't a true wizard. He is a lesser angel sent by greater angels that is over a 1000 years old. No mortal wizard could match him.

I'm thinking the DnD wizard is closer to the types of wizards you would find in a Conan novel or a book like Tigana. Less focused on martial power and more focused wizardly power.

I don't know if you have read Lord of the Rings but Gandalf was stronger than Boromir or Aragorn. I mean physically stronger by a gigantic margin. So Gandalf is a very bad example of a melee wizard. Gandalf could not be defeated by a mortal wizard.

 

[FadedC]

Well, a 26th-level wizard with Con 10 could be killed in one round by 8 lich vestiges (26th-level minions). They'd all have to hit, though, and the odds of that happening are not great.

Hmm....lich vestiges do get a huge damage boost against wizards. Even then they don't kill him and only knock him out, and only if the wizard somehow hit lvl 26 without taking toughness, and only if all 8 hit, which assuming they hit on a 9 (which I calculate as most likely) has about a 1 in 100 chance of happening.

 

[Sanzuo]

(Jackie Chan axe gang scene.)

This is perhaps one of the greatest kung-fu movies ever.

 

[GoLu]

No. Gandalf isn't a true wizard. He is a lesser angel sent by greater angels that is over a 1000 years old. No mortal wizard could match him.

I'm thinking the DnD wizard is closer to the types of wizards you would find in a Conan novel or a book like Tigana. Less focused on martial power and more focused wizardly power.

I don't know if you have read Lord of the Rings but Gandalf was stronger than Boromir or Aragorn. I mean physically stronger by a gigantic margin. So Gandalf is a very bad example of a melee wizard. Gandalf could not be defeated by a mortal wizard.

It's not inconceivable for an epic tier wizard to be adding a bigger number to strength checks than heroic or even paragon tier fighters, just because of the 1/2 level bonus.

And remember, at epic tier we're talking about people that are on their way to becomming demigods (or already are demigods and are on their way to becomming gods; I'm not totally clear on that), or are at least comparable in power to those proto-gods. In any case, saying that Gandalf is way more powerful than a D&D wizard because he's a lesser angel doesn't fly when high level D&D wizards can be demigods that are significantly more powerful than some of the lesser angels in the MM.

 

[Regicide]

The thread where where you claim over and over how stupid I am for thinking wizards could have a decent armor class, and then ran away with your tail between your legs when challenged to support your belief, and given actual math by me and other posters.

If by "concede" you mean "couldn't be bothered to respond to someone who thinks wizards have the same AC, HPs and healing surges as paladins and won't believe otherwise" then sure.

In this case your seem to theorize that at mid level or higher a wizard can be actually killed in one round by 8 minions. I'll challenge you again to do the math and show me how that's possible assuming average or even above average rolls.

God, more antagonistic nonsense from you, wonderful. I actually posted "before initiative came up", which means surprise + round, but it should be pretty obvious that it can be done. Ogres deal 9, 16 hits is 144 damage without any buffing, ample damage to kill a level 14 wizard. Fiends at 7 damage do 112, enough to kill a typical wizard, more than enough to guarantee dying. I know multiplying two numbers together is pretty hard to do which is why you needed me to do the math.

The level 1 kobolds are actually more of a threat, 64 damage in two rounds is going to kill any level 1 wizard. So minions become less of a threat at higher levels while at the same time being easier to kill in large numbers making them even more of an XP gimmie.