Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Switchback]

You're right. And how do those minions interact with friendly NPCs? They interact as if they were any other monster, they capture the friendly NPCs and hold trains hostage. Even when the friendly NPC's are fighting with the PC the NPCs still don't treat the minions as minions.

Now, thematically minions are definitely separate from the big kahuna's. They may or may not be separate in terms of looks. That determination is up to the DM for how he wants the encounter to turn out.

Well of course the creatures don't know they are minions, as in the specific meta-game fact that they have 1 HP in battle! NPC's wouldn't know that either or game around it as such, I agree.

Minions may however know they are weaker or have a lower status than other related monsters. And other NPC's might know this as well, as in example, the large differences between Vampire Spawn and Vampire Lords. If the local militia knows who the local Vampire Lord is, or even he is readily apparent in a battle, they are likely to treat him with even more fear and caution than a Spawn for instance.

Something like Ogres, would be less so differentiated. Though perhaps more easily by seasoned adventurers than townsfolk.

As far as I can tell, you and I have the same fundamental understanding of them and we are down to trivial issues at this point.

 

[GoLu]

If you're trying to tell me that Dnd wizard's melee combat ability compares to Gandalf then I don't know what to tell you. I disagree. Gandalf is... <snip>

...a fictional character not well represented by the D&D rules. I agree with you about that. I was just using him as an example of how powerful high level D&D characters could get, and didn't intend to come across as saying that the D&D wizard and Gandalf were one in the same.

All you did was point out a nonsensical rule that I don't even want to think about because it utterly ruins suspension of disbelief. Why would you point out a rule that is ridiculous if you take the time to think about it?
<snip>
Thanks for pointing out another illogical rule that is mainly there for mechanical effciency.

And wow. Just, wow. That's a whole lot of hostility towards 4e which I was completely not expecting. I'll respect your wishes and drop the topic.

 

[FourthBear]

I suppose if people simply dislike the "1 hp" in the stat block, the same effect could be achieved by giving them standard hit points, but giving them the following vulnerability:

Vulnerable: A minion hit by an attack by an opponent of its tier or higher is struck dead. A minion that takes any automatic damage from an effect with level in its tier or higher is struck dead, with the exception of any effect brought about by a miss.

The vast majority of the time it would work out the same, you would just have a standard hit point to reference in the odd occasions where cats attack or lethal bramble bushes need to be run through.

 

[DM_Blake]

Yes he was weaker.

The difference between a Vampire Spawn (a minion) and a Vampire Lord is not cosmetic. They are not interchangeable. Neither in combat or in the lore of the world. A Vampire Spawn is a once living humanoid that has been blood drained by a Vampire Lord. Vampire Lords are much more powerful immortal undead, that would never be confused with a spawn. The difference between them is *not* decided by the arrow shot by a PC. They have separate ecology in the world, and so do even weaker minions like Kobold Minions in relation to Dragonshields.

Sure, I grant you this case. A vampire's spawn are supposed to be weaker, and they are usually easy to tell - any seasoned vampire hunter can tell vampire from spawn.

But I think that's a small exception to my general theory.

Think of a bar scene in one of those Steven Seagal movies where he beats the crap out of everyone there on his way up to the villain on the other side. None of those ‘thugs’ are a challenge or even threat to him, no matter how many times he fights them. They are not going down in one punch or kick because he got lucky, or critical hit them , but because they are weak and nothing compared against the skill of Steven. He is always going to bend their arm backward and break it and make them scream, “You *)$#, you broke my arm!” Because he is just that awesome and they are just that pathetic.

I would not call this minion vs. non-minion.

In your Steven Seagall movies, I see it as a high level fighter (Seagall is certainly paragon, and in many of his movies, could even be borderline epic) enters a room full of low level fighters (mostly all level 1 with a possible few exceptions of level 2, 3, or maybe a rare level 4).

He wipes the floor with these guys because their attacks are weak (need a 20 to even hit him, and Seagall has tons of HP and healing surges, while he can hit them with anything but a natural 1).

Because they are low level, they don't have many HP, and Seagall is dishing out lots of damage, so they die or are rendered unconscious (or disabled, as with breaking arms).

Even Seagall is known to hit these mooks with combinations, striking them several times to bring down a mook. Other mooks he one-shots, maybe using stuff that 4e might call encounter powers, or maybe just good rolls with his at-wills...

Then he gets upstairs and finds the boss, and the boss' trusted henchmen, and these guys are higher level. High enough level to make a fight out of it. They damage Seagall, and he often has to damge them multiple times to kill them.

But here's where it gets into Minion Land - Seagall can one-shot some of these high-level henchmen, and often does. Especially in those movies where he uses guns or blades.

The difference?

Some of the bad guys in the upstairs floor are high level fighters, some are high level minions.

Which all fits into my theory outlined in my previous posts.

It’s the same idea with Minions in 4e.

Yes, the same as I just oulined here.

Kobold Minions die in droves to PC’s because they are nothing to the heroes. They are peons even among their own kind.

I disagree.

Among their own kind, a kobold minion may be a little weaker than a kobold specialist, but that's only a matter of training. As for their HP, they are both kobolds. If a kobold minion picks a fight with a kobold non-minion, they will be hacking and swinging and wrestling and probably even biting each other bloody, until one gives up or dies (or the other kobolds break it up). Maybe that non-minion has some special training that makes him more deadly in the fight, gives him an edge, but otherwise they are virtually identical.

Until the PCs bust into their lair and one-shot the minions and have to three- or four-shot the non-minions.

Just like the thugs in the bar in the movie are peons that are probably ordered and beat up earlier in the movie by the main bad dude or his right hand man, in order to foreshadow their own threat level.

Nah, just really low level bad guys.

If you or I broke into that bar and picked a fight, we probably wouldn't one-shot any of them, and would get our butts handed to us right quick.

(You're not Steven Seagall, or Jet Li, or some other super tough martial artist guy are you? If you are, then you might beat up that bar room of low-level guys too. I still wouldn't).

Now eventually Seagal comes up against the fat bodyguard or the muscled henchman that protects the villain and he gets a real fight, and this is the same as PC’s coming up against the Brutes or Soldiers or real threats in an encounter. Those foes are never going to be one-shotted, because they are the bigger kahunas not just in the battle, but in the larger game world itself. It’s a pecking order.

As I said above, these are the high level guys that put up a fight, but some of them might still be minions.

These guys, even the minions, can hit Seagall. They can hurt him. They often do. (Well, Seagall doesn't get hurt as much as Bruce Willis, aka John McClane, but sometimes he gets hurt).

Seagall kills/disables some of these guys quickly, in one or two shots (high level minions), but others take a long protracted fight scene, many blows exchanged, blood flowing on both sides, until eventually Seagall prevails (high level non-minions).

It all fits perfectly into my minion-world-view.

 

[Switchback]

I suppose if people simply dislike the "1 hp" in the stat block, the same effect could be achieved by giving them standard hit points, but giving them the following vulnerability:

What is standard hit points though?

This is not really feasible at higher minion levels. And sort of again, misconstrues that minions are copies of existing creatures but with 1 HP.

For instance a Angel of Valor Legionnaire minion is level 21, there is no standard type angel at the same level to compare it to to even give it a new HP maximum.

We have the Angel of Valor Soldier at level 8 with 88 HP. We have Angels of Protection, Lvl 14 (141 HP) that are an entirely different type, and Angels of Battle, Lvl 15 (296 HP) yet again a whole other type, that doesn't even look the same.

Realistically if you were to ratchet up a Legionnaire minion to a standard level 21 creature, it would have far more HP than the 88 HP of the level 8 standard version.

 

[Switchback]

It all fits perfectly into my minion-world-view.

I appreciated your take on the Seagal action. Kudos. But I think your idea of the thugs being low level mobs is stuck in a 3e mindset. Where you would have been right in 3e, there is no reason to use those low level thugs anymore since we have minions now. Separate unique creatures, that while having increased threat power, nonetheless have glass jaws.

It's not that Steven never got hit at all by the thugs, just when they did it, it virtually meant nothing. One broke a pool stick over his back and that is the automatic minion damage. It just makes him mad and he turns around and ends them, but those thugs were probably appropriately leveled minion's for the encounter.

I also don't think its consistent to wipe away the Vampires, Angels, and Devils and just say you will treat minions as equals of their race type when you can. If you notice, some minions have unique levels, meaning there is not even a same level standard to compare them to or confuse them with. At higher levels, the suggested MM encounters that are given rarely even mix minions with related non-minions of their race. Which is probably a good general rule at that point.

Anyway, I can see you are not likely to be persuaded, so good gaming sir.

 

[DM_Blake]

I agree. The new minion rule creates some headscratching now that the wizard essentially attacks as well as the melees with his weapon. So he could go on a melee beatdown spree, which is kind of not cool to imagine. Your two-handed sword wielding fighter wandering about hacking down minions is believable, the robe wearing wizard doing the same is one of those images that makes you laugh.

But most players won't play that way. So hopefully won't come up too often.

I seem to recall Gandalf hacking with his sword and bashing with his staff in both the movies and the books.

I doubt many fans of the genre find Gandalf overly laughable.

 

[ValhallaGH]

If you're disappointed in the thread, then leave the thread, or improve the thread, but don't just make non-contributional comments about your disappointment - that doesn't help anyone.

Having tried both of the previous methods with no success, I hoped an appeal to emotion would have some effect.

It looks like I was mistaken.

 

[FourthBear]

What is standard hit points though?

Well, I wouldn't actually use the system at all, since I think the current minion rules are fine, as is. However, if a DM felt that they would like to know how many hit points are appropriate for a standard monster of its level in the absence of its special minion status, I would use a median hit point value for a monster of its level. Looking at the table on page 184 of the DMG, that would appear to be (Con+8)+(Level*8). I would probably simplify that to 8*level. So, if suddenly an odd situation occured in the campaign where a DM wanted to know what hit points a monster of the level would have, level*8 would seem appropriate. In standard encounters, it wouldn't matter, since the vulnerability would mean that the minion would die before then from a hit or damage by one of the PCs. Another way to express it would be to replace the 1 hit point line with a binary Alive/Dead status. Its mainly for people who seem to be aesthetically offended by the "1 hit point" entry.

 

[Ninja-to]

Perhaps this can close the debate a little more.

In addition to the points I made earlier, this quote from the Minions article on WotC seems to sum up everything I've come to understand since starting this thread.

"When you use minions, you should use those of a level appropriate to the encounter you’re building. The concept of minions is to provide fun filler for encounters, not to provide a way for a 1st level character to gain 1,000+ XP for defeating a 23rd-level abyssal ghoul minion by rolling a natural 20. Minions are a rules abstraction, and one of the many tools a DM has to build exciting encounters."

I put bold on the points I think most people who quibble over minions and their 1HP don't seem to grasp.

It would seem, contrary to many claims in posts earlier, that minions are *not* monsters in and of themselves. The article talks about "An 8th level encounter might involve battling ogres, but later in that campaign you might have an earth titan that has enslaved an ogre tribe, and thus create a 16th level encounter with an elite earth titan and a bunch of ogre bludgeoneer minions."

It also seems to me that you need to take the same approach to a combat mechanic as you would to a creature. Not many people now have a problem with a 'shift' or a 5 foot step. It's just part of the game we've come to accept and understand as necessary to run things smoothly. The same open minded approach needs to be applied to minions. They're like your 'shift' maneuver. Their purpose is simply to make things run more smoothly.

I'm quite glad I started this thread, as I've now got no doubt in my mind what a minion should be used for. Wrongly or rightly, I will also use common sense in situations where a minion might lost his single hit point, such as in terrain damage (perhaps in the future there *will* be terrain that damages without an attack roll) or insta damage from sillyness, like angry house cats. In those cases, the minion simply isn't hurt enough to drop it.

Just have to keep in mind they're rules abstractions.

They serve simple purposes.

For the DM, they are a quick way to bookeep lots of creatures.

They do not provide free xp. We've debated that to death and I think the free xp argument can be put to rest. Not only should such encounters not happen in the first place, but if they did, then the DM should put the 'real' creature back in place of the minion. Look up to the above excerpt where the ogres at 8th level are real ogres. There's no reason the reverse of the abstraction can't be true. In other words, you have your fist level characters in a room with 16th level minions. Reverse the abstraction and put in 8th level ogres (non-minions). The PC's should run if they don't want a TPK, which should be the case anyway.

I'm fairly satisfied now with the addition to minions in 4th ed. What wasn't really explained carefully enough in the core books seems much clearer to me now. What really needs to be said is that minions need to be very carefully used by DM's, as they are an important tool. Misunderstood by DM's or players alike can lead to the strangeness people have been experiencing.

So for now, my own interpretation is that Felix and Garfield might try to take on a 30th level minion, but even if they both rolled 20's, their damage wouldn't affect that particular minion. Only the PC's can take off that hit point. Wrong or right, for the time being that's how I'm houseruling it.

Nuff said.