Melora's Tide + Healer's Lore

[darkadelphia]

I have a player who has taken Melora's Tide and Healer's Lore. He has been in contact with customer service, and they told him that Healer's Lore adds to each 'tick' of regeneration (meaning 6 points of regeneration per round instead of 2). At first, this seemed reasonable, but once I saw it in practice it seemed to be too much. Despite customer service, it seems to me that a more appropriate interpretation would be that Healer's Lore adds the wisdom modifier to the first 'tick' of regeneration, but the Tide works normally thereafter.

Thoughts? (If there's already a thread, please point me that way--no search )

 

[abyssaldeath]

Healer's lore says you add yous Wis mod to the hit points the recipient regains. So yes every time they get hitpont from regen you add your wis to it. It's not realy that overpowered. It only lasts untill they are no longer bloodied.

Now where it might get overpowered is when you cast Divine Power and Holy Wrath.

 

[xiphnophunq]

For what it's worth, on the exact same question, I received exactly the opposite reply from CSR.

Healer's Lore affects healing granted by the cleric, but the cleric doesn't grant healing with Melora's Tide, it grants regeneration, and the regeneration grants healing. One step removed, ergo no HL bonus.

Which is basically a way of saying that CSR will eventually give every possible answer, and so you get to make the DM call.

 

[Redbeardin84]

Healer's Lore adds the wisdom Modifier to all healing granted by a CLERIC power with the HEALING keyword.

Channel Divinity: Melora's Tide has the HEALING keyword, but is not a CLERIC power, it is a feat power, and available to Paladins because of the difference in those types of powers.

Also, it does not grant Healing. It grants regeneration.

That aside, you could house-rule things as it suits your group. I don't think anyone will take your rulebooks off of you if you decide to.

Remember that in certain periodic Spans of levels the Regeneration granted will increase. So "fixing" it at a low level may have bad consequences at a high Level.

 

[Thanee]

Well, regeneration is healing. It's a special form of healing. Says so right in the description. So, Healer's Lore should apply to regeneration (like that granted with Divine Power).


But Melora's Tide is not a Cleric power, as has been said already, so Healer's Lore shouldn't work at all with this specific power.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Revinor]

You could argue both ways:

1) Healing Word is not a cleric power. It is cleric feature "which works like power". So with certain intepretation, you cannot apply Healer's Lore even to Healing Word.

2) On the opposite side, if we assume that cleric features are cleric powers, "Channel Divinity" IS a cleric power. Please note, note Divine Fortune or Turn Undead - it is a "Channel Divinity". In Cleric list, there are just two of them listed, but wording is quite clear that those are only preselected ones, not all encompassing.

Why feat ones have "Feat Power" instead of "Cleric Feature" ? Because they can be taken by multiple classes. Still I think that basic rule that "Channel Divinity" is a cleric feature holds, regardless of what type of channel it is.

Anyway, I think that only once thing is clear. Whatever wording/semantics we can read as RAW, it has nothing to do with how it was intended. To get this explanation, we will have to wait for official ruling - line is so thin, that ruling can go in either direction, regardless of the consensus here.

So for me, it is DM call till the ruling.

 

[nittanytbone]

Hey, I'm the player in question. Here's the CUST SERV Q&A. I just asked for clarification, but hey, its CUST SERV, so... Yeah. Not too hopeful.

Melora's Tide (PHB 198) grants ongoing regeneration (2 for Heroic characters).

Healer's Lore (PHB 61) adds your WIS modifier to any healing using a cleric power with the healing keyword.

Beacon of Hope (PHB 64) adds +5 to all of your healing powers for the duration of the encounter.

When a cleric activates Melora's Tide, how do these features interact?

A) Neither Healer's Lore nor Beacon of Hope affect the regeneration from Melora's Tide. The target gains Regen 2.

B) Healer's Lore & Beacon of Hope have an instantaneous effect, once, as soon as Melora's Tide is used. THus, a cleric with 16 WIS and Beacon of Hope running would instantly heal 8 HP (3 + 5) on the target, then the regeneration would kick in.

C) Healer's Lore and Beacon of Hope impact the regeneration every round. Thus, the target would gain regen 2 + 3 + 5 = 10.

D) Something else.


Melora's Tide is a cleric power and has the healing keyword. Regeneration per the PHB is "a special kind of healing."

Thanks for your assistance!

-Chris

********************
Page Number: Feat (198), Power (64)
Book Name: 4E PHB

Their response:

Greetings Christopher,

All of those abilities that have the Healing Keyword are affected by Healer's Lore and Beacon of Hope. Their effect on Melora's Tide will stack, but remember that Melora's Tide will fade when the target is no longer bloodied.

Please let me know if you have any more questions!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

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Charles
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST

Here's the book text for a few things in question:

HEALER'S LORE

..."When you grant healing with one of your cleric powers with the healing keyword, add your WIS modifier to the HP the recipient regains."

CHANNEL DIVINITY

"The cleric has two class features that work like powers: Channel Divinity and Healing Word. The channel divinity class feature encompasses multiple powers, two of which are presented below."

"Once per encounter you can invoke divine power... Some clerics learn other uses for this feature; for instance, the divinity feats in Chapter 6 grant characters with access to the Channel Divinity class feature the ability to use additional special powers... The special ability or power you invoke works just like your other powers."

MELORA'S TIDE (PHB 199)
This is a "feat power." It is also an Encounter power with the Divine and Healing keywords.


MY THOUGHTS

So, the real question is: Is Melora's Tide a "Cleric Power" for purposes of Healer's Lore?

Using the logic that nothing but a "Cleric Power" ("Cleric Attack" or "Cleric Utility" qualifies, any of the multiple Channel Divinity options that trigger a healing surge from Chapter 6 would not get to benefit from Healer's Lore either. Additionally, because it is a "class feature," then Healing Word does not qualify for Healer's Lore either.

That does not seem to be the intent of the rules!

Additionally, while Melora's Tide is a "feat power," Channel Divinity is a Cleric Class Feature that "works like a power." Melora's Tide is another way to use Channel Divinity, as explicitly discussed in the Cleric Class Feature text. Melora's Tide has the Divine and Healing keywords.

My thought is that based on the text: Healing Word and Channel Divinity work "like" cleric powers. Melora's Tide is a way to use Channel Divinity, thus, Melora's Tide works "like" a cleric power. The text states that Channel Divinity works "just like" your other cleric powers multiple times.

Barring a definitive ruling from the designers, I think common sense needs to kick in somewhere. There's a cleric class feature (Healer's Lore) affecting a cleric power (Channel Divinity) specifically referenced in the cleric section (taking a feat to gain new uses of Channel Divinity). Healer's Lore should at least kick in on the first "tick" of regeneration, even if its not every round. Even if it kicks in every round, that just means that Melora's Tide is done faster as the target is no longer bloodied in a hurry.

Plus, allowing Healer's Lore to apply helps Melora's Tide scale better with level. Just how useful is Regen 4 going to be to a fighter at level 15 with 115 HP? Will Regen 6 matter at all to a fighter with 175 HP at level 25?

 

[KarinsDad]

You could argue both ways:

1) Healing Word is not a cleric power. It is cleric feature "which works like power". So with certain intepretation, you cannot apply Healer's Lore even to Healing Word.

In the very next sentence, however, it indicates that the Channel Divinity class features are powers:

The Channel Divinity class feature encompasses multiple powers, two of which are presented below.

Plus, the entire section is under "Class Powers".

WotC designers seem to be unable to make up their minds.

 

[nittanytbone]

Here's the final exchange with CUST SERV, for what it's worth.

ME:

Wow, thanks for the fast response on a Sunday afternoon! I hope Wizards gives you some time off!

So just to clarify and be very specific, Melora's Tide will grant Regeneration 10 (in the above scenario) EVERY ROUND until the target is no longer bloodied?

Thanks for bearing with me. My DM is skeptical that this is how it actually works.

CUST SERV:

Christopher,

That is correct.

Good Gaming!

We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Paul
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST

 

[ac_noj]

It's your game, and if it's breaking it then you should certainly ban it. That's the DM's job after all, to keep things fun instead of letting them get ridiculous.

I would rule that it does not apply because it is not a Cleric power. However I would add Healers lore to every tick of regeneration granted by a Cleric power like Divine Power.