Taking a Break

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Worst. Dear John. Ever.

I'm assuming this is directed at me and my original post. If I'm misunderstanding you, I'm sorry and can only say that your post is short and somewhat vague, so it's difficult for me to know exactly what you're talking about.

If my concerns are not important or valid to you, why post? This is the kind of response that has generally turned me off to this place. It doesn't add anything. It's not surprising, I knew it would show up eventually. Thankfully, every other post in this thread has been a lot more thoughtful.
 

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Really, the same problem exists with a lot of terms. We don't all agree, for example, on the meaning of "D&D", yet no one would suggest that we stop using the term.


See I'm not sure I agree there...

I mean, I think I'd be equally confused if people started saying that's so "D&Dey..."

As it stands "that's so videogamey" tends to just stand as a call and responce that could be replaced with. "That sucks!" "Yeah!"

I could do the same by saying, "D&D is so paper cupey." It doesn't add anything understandable to the discussion or debate because people then just add their own meaning in.

It would be equally invalid to say "It's fun." and leave it at that, although fun, tends to have a much more universal meaning then a word like "videogamey."


I don't mind though if people say it's videogamey, and then explain what they mean, like you did above. (Although, I dissagree with how you're applying it to 4e, and feel it's a common problem of people applying a 3e mindset to the 4e rules.)
 

Maybe the solution is to not use such names and words in an offensive context?


Excepting that we all know there are folks on this forum who are offended by calling 4e "D&D", or 3e "D&D", or probably even 2e, or 1e. I don't think it is productive to limit discussion to what no one might find offensive.

If you go onto a thread about "Why I don't like cake" you really shouldn't be offended about someone's discussion of finding cake too sugary, even if you know that all cakes are not sugary, and that "sugary" might not be the best term. Likewise, if you dislike cakes, you shouldn't jump into every (or any) "My cake recipe" threads to complain about how you don't like cake.

IMHO, anyway.

Let those who don't like cake discuss why in "don't like cake" threads, let those who like cake discuss not only why, but what sort of cakes they're going to make, and who they are going to enjoy them with, in all sorts of "cake" threads. Because we all know that there are a lot more "cake" threads than "don't like cake" threads right now.

Being offended that someone likes, or doesn't like, cake, is the source of the problem, IMHO. The terminology used is largely irrelevant.


RC
 

I'm not a founding member. I don't have an absurdly high post count. I often don't get to threads until they're well under way.

These things don't matter, trust me.

I don't have an awesome story hour. I don't grace anyone's signature. I'm not gaming with any of the mods. In short, I'm a pretty average member, and generally go unnoticed around here.

My story hours are far from awesome, no one quotes me in sigs, I don't game with the mods. But that stuff doesn't really matter either. I'm pretty average as well and if you've seen the trouble I goto to get some things seen around here I go pretty much unnoticed to.

I'm sure the snarky "who cares, thanks for sharing" reply is inevitable. But I think it's important that I voice my opinion, because maybe someone who can take action will notice. We'll see.

People need to just ignore the snarky comments. It is not easy and it does frustrate me. But replying to them and letting them bother you doesn't help anything. If you want someone who can take action to notice, then you have to start with yourself. We can all take action and just not indulge in the bickering and the hatred. It hasn't been easy but it is something I've been trying to do here. Maybe it will work; maybe it won't. But I think it is important to try. Enjoy your time away from the boards. :D
 


Well, I agree with you King Jay to some degree, and with Shilsen to some degree.

I used to come here on occasion and post mostly gaming theory and design articles and pieces I had written (on general gaming theory approaches, or milieu design and development, etc) - that kind of thing. And I've noticed that not a lot of that type of activity goes on here now, comparatively speaking, and that's okay as far as I'm concerned. But I really don't much care about writing and posting articles like that anymore only to have them degenerate into arguments rather than debates. I'm probably a whole lot older than most of you guys, I was playing Chainmail before original D&D, and so I've been around awhile in that respect. So I'm very used to the idea of a vigorous debate (back when that kinda thing went on man to man rather than just by slinging electrons over a data stream) and to sharing Shilsen's views on the matter of strangers on the internet (I was around a long while before there was any such beastie). Nor do I give undue weight to the views of strangers by any other method of expression. They may be right, at which point I'll try to carefully analyze and benefit from their viewpoint, or they may be wrong, but I don't automatically assume their opinion is worth getting worked up about. But it did get to the point where everything written seemed to lead to a circular and practically never-ending argument (I got nothing against argument either, it's sometimes extremely useful and beneficial, I just don't have any interest in everything being an argument on most every occasion) and it just got to be incredibly tedious to argue everything ad infinitum when you could pretty much guess what the other guy was gonna say before he ever did. (And I'm not just talking about my threads, but a lot of threads I used to read in.) It is extremely tedious to respond to never ending arguments. There's not much gain or profit to it, it isn't really a form of problem solving or progressive action, and it leads to an awful lot of hard mileage without ever really getting anywhere worth going. Of course I can't blame everything on site activity, a lot of it also has to do with my work schedule and other projects to which I am currently devoted.

However, that being said, I still come here and lurk when I can, but mostly now I visit to data and information mine. Because this place does generate some very interesting ideas on occasion, and some of the posters do have fascinating theories every now and again.

And I think that a lot of the more interesting active has simply been suppressed by all of the ruckus surrounding the D&D 4th Edition (which personally I like). That was bound to happen, at least temporarily because of the fact that a lot of the energy and concentration that might have been devoted to other issues is now, sometimes rightfully, and sometimes rather spuriously, consumed with all of the factors and vectors concerning the new edition. So anytime there is both a theoretical and pragmatic transition of a paradigm to that degree I reckon most folks will be consumed by it, distracted by it, or at least diverted by it for a time, til the novelty wears off and people begin to return to different issues and interests. Also I think to some degree the problem here is structural change. The site is laid out differently and the discussions more fragmented and specialized, leading to some degree of segmentation, meaning that it is far more difficult to have "global and theoretical discussions" because there is less natural subject synchronicity and far more division of subject matter into non-overlapping, tightly controlled categories of inquiry and discussion. That will change over time I suspect, but it take some getting used to in the way people approach their particular areas of interest. There's 3rd Edition, and 4th Edition, and other games, and so on and so forth. I understand the technical reasoning and the operational and functional approach in regards to the board, but such a schema automatically reduces certain natural lines of pursuit to, "that's not really appropriate for this forum" no matter how interesting or proper the subject being discussed is in the general sense of things. Now I'm sure I'm not the first person to make these observations but it did occur to me as soon as I saw how the forums were being arranged and noted how the threads were being reconstructed accordingly.

So I very much sympathize with your general position and philosophical outlook on the matter, for a number of different reasons. But then again my take on these discussions is that, number one, it is just a game, and there is no sense in getting all riled up over a game. It isn't curing cancer or walking on Mars or saving a life, though any activity can be very interesting and useful if properly approached. And if others don't like your chosen game, or the way you handle things, well, that's their affair and it says nothing about you in particular. But number two is that things change over time and nothing ever remains static, it is either engaged a process of progress, or degeneration, or to be honest, as with most things, usually a little bit of both.

And my feeling about this site is that it is both advancing and progressing in some respects and degenerating and regressing in some respects, and as they say, "C'est la vie."

My general impression though is that over time the site will improve more so than not. So I still come here to read what folk will posit and to see what I can make of that. But if you feel you need a break then in my opinion go with your best instincts. People need breaks from practically everything on occasion (including their own interests), and taking a break usually leads to a more balanced and objective view than continuing along with what you've grown tired of just out of mere habit. Then later you can return if you wish, invigorated and all the wiser for having gained some objective perspective.

That's my opinion on the matter, and take it for what it is worth considering it comes from a stranger on the internet.
 

I'm assuming this is directed at me and my original post. If I'm misunderstanding you, I'm sorry and can only say that your post is short and somewhat vague, so it's difficult for me to know exactly what you're talking about.

If my concerns are not important or valid to you, why post? This is the kind of response that has generally turned me off to this place. It doesn't add anything. It's not surprising, I knew it would show up eventually. Thankfully, every other post in this thread has been a lot more thoughtful.
Sigh. I'm the reason you're leaving, is it? A little humor, and you feel insulted and have to take your ball and go home.

Fine. Off you go, then. Sorry to rain on your passive aggressive mock polite "flameout". Apparently I can't help but offend someone by trying to lighten up a thread a bit. My post doesn't have sufficient gravitas for your oh so serious announcement where you say, "hey, nobody knows me, but I'm leaving because you've all gotten so mean, so maybe then you'll pay attention to me and miss me!" sign-off. I lack sufficient grief at your leaving? Is that it?

Or, if ENWorld hadn't removed the :rolleyes: smilie, I wouldn't have needed to type any of that at all.
 


/snip

Being offended that someone likes, or doesn't like, cake, is the source of the problem, IMHO. The terminology used is largely irrelevant.


RC

Utter ballocks. Sorry, but, on an internet forum, where all we can do to communicate is to use typed words, terminology is the single most important element of communication. There can be nothing more important to facilitate communication than agreeing on the terms.

How many threads turn into mindless pedantic crap because two (or more) posters cannot agree on basic terms? Hell, Raven Crowking and myself have gone around the block more than a few times for EXACTLY this sort of thing. When I did my anime challenge last year, the clearest thing that came out of that thread was that very, very few people had the slightest clue what anime actually meant. People were pointing at stuff that was clearly not anime and calling it anime because they didn't like it.

Shadowfax is a pokemount. :p

All posters have two choices when posting. They can either post in clear, unambiguous language and attempt to make their point, or they can rely on disengenious, vague, unclear language that obfuscates and confuses. Every, and I mean EVERY, hot button term belongs in the second category.

RC trumpets that he got someone to agree with his personal definition of videogamey. But, unless every single person who reads EnWorld has read his definition, the next time he uses the term "videogamey", he's going to have to redifine it again. And again. And again. All because he wants to use language which has a million different meanings.

Say what you mean. Always. Don't rely on vague terms, pretty much anything ending in "y" - videogamey, board gamey, card gamey whatever. They have a million different connotations and all they do is derail any possible attempt at communication because now we have to stop, define what you mean by those terms, agree that the terms actually follow that definition and then continue on with the conversation.

Is it really too difficult to speak plainly without resorting to vague, nearly meaningless terms?
 

I don't think that far ahead. For me, I'm just a bit peeved about some of what's been done with the game's flavour, and wanted to express some incredulity about it.

So no ulterior motive from me (or if there is one, I'm unaware of it). The die has been cast, the horse has bolted, the balrog is in the woodpile (and it's snacking on a half-eaten "dragonborn warlord", whatever the heck that is).

All this talk of "new Coke" is just wishful thinking that WOTC is going to recant - and IMO it's unrealistic to expect that to happen.

There's a slight difference between expressing "some incredulity about it" and:

It's superior to what's going to be the 4E approach as well, with a class for every day of the year, based on the flimsiest of flim flam concepts, more thematically void rubbish which we saw a preview of with 3E. "Classes" with no real theme or concept beyond it's crunch - like the warlord but worse. That's gonna suck.

"That's gonna suck"? Is a constructive criticism?

I find it laughable that those who complain the loudest about being jumped on for criticizing 4e are posting things like this.
 

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