Is Stealth the new Grapple?

[Phesic]

Here's a simple question that's come up several times in my game:

Suppose you have a fighter with a rogue armed with crossbow standing right behind him. The rogue has concealment against anything on the other side of the fighter, so can he make a stealth check as part of an attack? If he beats the target's passive perception, he gets combat advantage and can sneak attack, right?

When the rogue takes the shot the target automatically spots him (right?) but can he simply repeat the same move each turn? He has concealment, after all.

Handling something like that gives me a real headache, as I'm trying to combine RAW with RAI and something that makes sense to my players and I in the context of the game. Thoughts and comments are appreciated...

--Steve

Where in the rules does it say you can make a STEALTH check to gain combat advantage? Concealment just makes you harder to hit and allows you to stealth as long as the enemy is unaware of you, but concealment doesn't make an enemy unaware of you.

Bluff allows you to gain combat advantage once per ENCOUNTER. I seriously doubt they want stealth to be a bigger in combat skill than bluff.

 

[SteveC]

Where in the rules does it say you can make a STEALTH check to gain combat advantage? Concealment just makes you harder to hit and allows you to stealth as long as the enemy is unaware of you, but concealment doesn't make an enemy unaware of you.

Bluff allows you to gain combat advantage once per ENCOUNTER. I seriously doubt they want stealth to be a bigger in combat skill than bluff.

I'm not sure why this would even be an issue. From page 188 of the PHB:

Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. If you later attack or shout, you’re no longer hidden.

Combat Advantage: You have combat advantage against a target that isn’t aware of you.

--Steve

 

[the_redbeard]

All of these things are predicated on the ability of stealth to grant combat advantage against an opponent. It does so only when a character isn't aware of you. Once you engage in combat, unless you can become invisible, it's impossible for stealth to grant combat advantage. That's what bluff is for. Now, with cover or concealment, you could apply something to your blade using stealth without someone knowing (like poison or the like.)

Once you've been spotted, stealth won't grant combat advantage until the end of the encounter.

I can't find a statement anywhere that says you can make a stealth roll to grant combat advantage.

Please actually read the rules before passing judgements.

The rules for combat advantage, on page 280:

The following situations give an attacker combat
advantage against a defender.
When a defender is . . .
Balancing (page 180)
Blinded (page 277)
Climbing (page 182)
Dazed (page 277)
Flanked by the attacker (page 285)
Helpless (page 277)
Prone (melee attacks only) (page 277)
Restrained (page 277)
Running (page 291)
Squeezing (page 292)
Stunned (page 277)
Surprised (page 277)
Unable to see the attacker (page 281)
Unaware of you (page 188)
Unconscious (page 277)

First, note that you need ONLY ONE of those conditions to achieve combat advantage.

Second, note the page numbers:

Unaware of you (page 188). Page 188 is where stealth is.

Unable to see the attacker (page 281). Page 281 is where Total Cover/Concealment is indicated.

Finally, look at what the FAQ (which is official), actually has to say on the matter:
"16. What are the benefits of being hidden?

There are several benefits of being hidden from an enemy - you have combat advantage against them and they will have a more difficult time targeting you because you are unseen. Page 281 of the Player's Handbook explains the rules for targeting unseen creatures. "

Look at the success status for Stealth, from page 188:
Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from
view. If you later attack or shout, you’re no longer
hidden.

Stealth = hidden. Hidden = unseen. Do I really need to convince you that "unseen = can't be seen"?

Sure, stealth can be used to walk quietly, to pick a lock quietly, etc. Those uses of stealth wouldn't make you hidden. Sometimes stealth is used to be unheard, sometimes it can be used to simply not be noticed (such as in a crowd.) But if you have cover or concealment, you can use stealth to hide, gaining total concealment (ie, can't be seen), forcing the enemy to use the Targeting What You Can't See Rules (unequivocally per the FAQ), and gaining you combat advantage (explicitly on page 280.)

Stealth in 4th edition is useful after combat has been started. Forget your 3.5 bias against stealth.

 

[the_redbeard]

Where in the rules does it say you can make a STEALTH check to gain combat advantage? Concealment just makes you harder to hit and allows you to stealth as long as the enemy is unaware of you, but concealment doesn't make an enemy unaware of you.

Bluff allows you to gain combat advantage once per ENCOUNTER. I seriously doubt they want stealth to be a bigger in combat skill than bluff.

Please quote the rules that say you can't stealth if someone is aware of you.


In fact, the rules say quite the opposite. You can stealth EVEN IF someone isn't distracted, as long as you have cover or concealment.

Cover or Concealment: Unless a creature is distracted,
you must have cover against or concealment
from the creature to make a Stealth check.

So I could distract someone (or have a friend distract them) or I could have simple cover.
There's a pillar? I duck behind it, not just making myself a smaller target (cover) but I can use the stealth skill to hide behind it. Sure, they know what square I'm in - but they can't see me. They won't be defending themselves as well when I pop out and attack, so I get combat advantage.

Stealth is useful in combat starting at 1st level in 4th edition.

 

[seusomon]

Personally, I'm a bit stingy when it comes to allowing sneak attacks against an enemy that knows exactly where you are and what you are doing. For me, hiding behind a pillar and sometimes poking out on the left to shoot and sometimes poking out on the right to shoot isn't really a situation where the enemy cannot adequately anticipate and defend against your attack.

The balance issue lurking in the background here is that the other strikers (ranger and warlock) get an extra d6 damage with virtually no effort. ("That's my quarry; I smack it). The rogue gets 2d6 (or 2d8 with backstab, which is an obvious feat selection). How much does the rogue need to work for that extra die?

Personally, I'd like to see him sweating a bit, maneuvering, repositioning, taking advantage of distractions created by allies, etc. - not just sitting behind a pillar and chanting "hah hah, no one knows where I am, +2d8".

But I think the goal is to have a rogue get sneak attack about about half the time.

 

[Runestar]

But I think the goal is to have a rogue get sneak attack about about half the time.

Which seems to contradict the admission by the designer earlier on about the rogue expecting to deal SA consistently every round (or at least, the implications that encounters are balanced off the assumptions that this is viable). The idea seems to be that while the rogue still needs to put in some effort to be able to SA, he should still have a fairly high chance of succeeding each round (so the need to get CA could be more of a formality than a burden).

 

[the_redbeard]

There are dozens of threads here and on the WotC site, where confusion and disagreement about stealth are quite apparent.

Disagreements by people that claim things like "hidden from view" is different from "hidden" or "can't be seen" and make assumptions without actually reading the rules.

1. A character needs concealment or cover to make a stealth check. Allies provide cover against ranged attacks. Can I stand behind an ally and use stealth to hide from my enemies and make sneak attacks against them?

Rules as written, yes you could do this with ranged attacks (allies do not provide cover from melee attacks.)
Combat Advantage merely means your target can't actively dodge your attack because your target can't see you as you aim.
This is easy to counter. On their turn, your target can simply move to change their line of sight and get a clear attack on you.

I do admit I look forward to a FAQ clarifying the issue. I wouldn't begrudge a DM who didn't play it by the book. But there it is.

2. I hide behind a tree. As long as I am in that single square, I have cover and concealment. If I move out, I am immediately spotted. Can I pick my nose using stealth as a free action, declare that my enemies are now "unaware" of me, and use sneak attack? Can I do this repeatedly, round after round, standing in the same spot, sneakily picking my nose?

The Free Action Complaint:
"Part of Whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily"
A free action typically doesn't hide you - it just means your free action was performed stealthily. Ie, nobody saw or heard you pick your nose, whisper to your friend, or drop an item (typical free actions.)

Not every stealth action makes you unseen. If you merely want to do something quietly (say, pick a lock) you use the stealth skill. "Part of whatever action you are performing stealthily" does not mean you are always unseen with every action. Sometimes it only means unheard, sometimes it only means avoid notice.

But for your Pillar Example:
Behind a tree: you have cover. Not concealment. Not the same thing.
If you successfully steatlh, hiding behind the tree with a move or minor action: then you are hidden from view, unseen, able to attack with combat advantage and requiring that attacks against you are at -5 (can't be seen is the definition of Total concealment.)

When you attack: you lose concealment.

Then you must make an action to hide again. Note what I said about free actions above.
You must make an action to move yourself back behind the pillar, to take advantage of the cover to stealth. Sounds like a move or a minor action.

3. Is the enemy's perception check active or passive? When and why? If the enemies make active perception checks, we have maybe 20 goblins all trying to spot me while I pick my nose behind the tree. This happens every round. And maybe my allies are making stealth checks too. Isn't this a bit much?

Here you are deliberately being obtuse or not reading the rules.

Yes, it does say on page 188:
Opposed Check: Stealth vs. Perception (see the
table for modifiers to your check). If there are multiple
observers, your Stealth check is opposed by
each observer’s Perception check.

But if you were so bold as to look up what Perception says on page 186:
Perception: No action required—either you notice
something or you don’t. Your DM usually uses your
passive Perception check result.

As poster Innuit says, think of your passive Perception as a defense against stealth.

You make one stealth roll. You compare it against the highest passive perception skill of the enemies that might see you. That one enemy, if intelligent, can use a free action to alert the rest.

One roll.
One target number.

No. Big. Deal.

Now - in their turn, your enemies can make active checks. I admit there is an apparent inconsistency here.

On page 186:
Perception: No action required—either you notice
something or you don’t. Your DM usually uses your
passive Perception check result. If you want to use the
skill actively, you need to take a standard action or
spend 1 minute listening or searching, depending on
the task.

Which would seem to tell you that you need to take a standard action for an active check.
However, as the book says, Specific overrules general.
We have a more specific rule:

Page 281, Targeting What You Can't See:
Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make
an active Perception check as a minor action...

So it is only a minor action for an active perception check against an unseen (ie, hidden from view, stealthed) target.

4. Making an attack means my enemies are no longer unaware of me. What do I need to do, stealthily, to make them unaware of me again. Do I need to change location, do any action at all with a successful stealth check, or just wait for my next turn?

Please cite the magic "unaware", change location, etc., as a requirement to stealth.
Yes, you need to do an action. "Part of whatever action you are performing stealthily". No you can't simply attack stealthily: attacks break stealth.
See above for free action.
If your attack was your last action in your turn, you need to wait for the next round to hide.

5. What does "unaware of me" actually mean? That my enemies do not know that I exist? That they do not know my general whereabouts? That they do not know my exact location? That they do not know the details of what I am doing this moment? The answer to that question has a big impact on how useful stealth is to establish combat advantage by the "enemies unaware of you" criteria.

Please reread combat advantage. It specifically sites page 188 (stealth) as one of the ways to gain CA.


Stealth has many uses besides hiding. It is moving silently. It is (aside from specific uses of sleight of hand) performing actions without being noticed.
It could even be mixing in a crowd without the guards looking for you noticing you.

It is not a Jedi Mind Trick. The people you are hiding from don't forget that you are out there somewhere. If you are hiding behind a piece of solitary cover (like a tree), they likely will know exactly where you are. They just can see you.

4th edition skills are broad, and don't do one simple thing (ie, Move Silent).
Arcana is detecting magic, spell identification, ritual use, magical lore, etc. Stealth is also many things.

6. If you pass a stealth check against one enemy, but fail against his buddy, do you assume the buddy lets him know what's up and ruins your combat advantage?

It is a free action to communicate. If you're facing intelligent enemies, why wouldn't they?

The official replies haven't been entirely consistent with each other, or with the RAW. We get the impression that rogues are supposed to be using stealth -> enemies unaware -> combat advantage -> sneak attack almost all the time, but that's a chain with a number of links to it, and a common-sense approach would often result in at least one of those links breaking fairly regularly.

Customer service is not official. They can be helpful at times, but their answers don't have any kind of quality assurance process. The errata and the FAQ are official. I suggest you check it out.

There's also a confusion about stealth making the enemy "unaware of you" and the rules about unseen adversaries. Unaware = unseen = invisible?

Again, check the FAQ.

But from the PHB:
Stealth, Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from
view.

You want to pick your nose in the throne room without upsetting the King? That would be stealth, but it wouldn't make you unseen.
You want to hide behind a pillar so you can jump out and attack? That would be stealth, but hiding behind the pillar would make you unseen unless your enemy had x-ray vision or tremor sense.

In a rules set where almost every condition is very clearly and unambiguously defined, both in terms of its causes and its consequences, we are having to guess our way through the condition "hidden"/"enemy unaware of you", both in terms of how you get that condition and in terms of what you can actually do when you have it, without losing it.

The people that can't make the leap between "hidden from view" and "can't be seen" need professional help.

 

[the_redbeard]

Personally, I'm a bit stingy when it comes to allowing sneak attacks against an enemy that knows exactly where you are and what you are doing. For me, hiding behind a pillar and sometimes poking out on the left to shoot and sometimes poking out on the right to shoot isn't really a situation where the enemy cannot adequately anticipate and defend against your attack.

Fine, you house rule it as you like. Your table, your game.

However, you'll be sorely disappointed in a convention or something.

The balance issue lurking in the background here is that the other strikers (ranger and warlock) get an extra d6 damage with virtually no effort. ("That's my quarry; I smack it). The rogue gets 2d6 (or 2d8 with backstab, which is an obvious feat selection). How much does the rogue need to work for that extra die?

As you say, the extra d6 for ranger, warlock are automatic.
Even flanking (which grants combat advantage nearly every round) is situational.

Here is a quote from Mike Mearls, one of the developers:

Hey all,

This is all unofficial advice, not official fodder for the FAQ. But, here's my view:

1. The game's math assumes that the rogue gets sneak attack with just about every attack he makes. If the rogues in your game are constantly gaining combat advantage, it really isn't a big deal.

2. You check to see if you are hidden from a foe when you attack, and lose hiding after completing the entirety of the attack action. You can't attack stealthily; you have to already be hidden when you attack.

So, stealth breaks *after* the attack.

3. Make your Stealth checks against passive Perception, unless a critter uses a minor action to make another Stealth check.

4. Remember that intelligent foes will share information. If one of the four hobgoblins spots a hidden PC, that guy can tell his allies where the PC is hiding.

5. I now have a meeting and have to run. But I think that covers most of it. And note I didn't go near warlocks. Yet.

There you have it. The math assumes rogues will stealth and get CA. A lot.

Personally, I'd like to see him sweating a bit, maneuvering, repositioning, taking advantage of distractions created by allies, etc. - not just sitting behind a pillar and chanting "hah hah, no one knows where I am, +2d8".

But I think the goal is to have a rogue get sneak attack about about half the time.

A smart enemy will maneuver around that, charge the rogue, cast a spell like Lantern, etc.

 

[Phesic]

Please cite the magic "unaware", change location, etc., as a requirement to stealth.

It's a requirement for the COMBAT ADVANTAGE listed under the stealth skill Pg 188

Please reread combat advantage. It specifically sites page 188 (stealth) as one of the ways to gain CA.

No. It refers back to ISN'T AWARE OF YOU. The necessary component of the combat advantage granted by stealth. It's obvious that this is applies to include sneaking up to a guard who is on high alert and can't be surprised. But hiding from a guard to regain combat advantage in the middle of combat. There is NO way to re-establish the "ISN'T AWARE" status, once you attack. It's that "isn't aware of you" status that grants combat advantage.

But from the PHB:
Stealth, Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from
view.

But not unaware. Once you attack, the "Isn't aware" status can't be regained without a spell or an exploit. (invisibility, etc)

You want to hide behind a pillar so you can jump out and attack? That would be stealth, but hiding behind the pillar would make you unseen unless your enemy had x-ray vision or tremor sense.

Unseen, sure. But they would be VERY aware of you.

 

[the_redbeard]

It's a requirement for the COMBAT ADVANTAGE listed under the stealth skill Pg 188


No. It refers back to ISN'T AWARE OF YOU. The necessary component of the combat advantage granted by stealth. It's obvious that this is applies to include sneaking up to a guard who is on high alert and can't be surprised. But hiding from a guard to regain combat advantage in the middle of combat. There is NO way to re-establish the "ISN'T AWARE" status, once you attack. It's that "isn't aware of you" status that grants combat advantage.


But not unaware. Once you attack, the "Isn't aware" status can't be regained without a spell or an exploit. (invisibility, etc)

Unseen, sure. But they would be VERY aware of you.

Please, read. It is a necessary skill to play this game.

The following situations give an attacker combat
advantage against a defender.
When a defender is . . .
Balancing (page 180)
Blinded (page 277)
Climbing (page 182)
Dazed (page 277)
Flanked by the attacker (page 285)
Helpless (page 277)
Prone (melee attacks only) (page 277)
Restrained (page 277)
Running (page 291)
Squeezing (page 292)
Stunned (page 277)
Surprised (page 277)
Unable to see the attacker (page 281)
Unaware of you (page 188)
Unconscious (page 27)

You only need ONE of those conditions for combat advantage.


Interesting things about that:
Unaware of you, page 188, is stealth.
Unable to see the attacker, page 281, is the targeting what you can't see rules.

From the FAQ (you know there's an official FAQ, don't you?)

16. What are the benefits of being hidden?
There are several benefits of being hidden from an enemy - you have combat advantage against them and they will have a more difficult time targeting you because you are unseen. Page 281 of the Player's Handbook explains the rules for targeting unseen creatures.

Stealth, page 188:
Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from
view.

Combat Advantage: You have combat advantage
against a target that isn’t aware of you.

The combat advantage listed here is a result of a stealth success, it is not an additional requirement for combat advantage. That should be obvious from the long list of different ways to gain CA on 280.

Most people with basic English could equate "Avoid Notice" with "unaware". No, it does not mean that stealth is a Jedi Mind Trick. It is listing the many different ways that stealth can be used.

Stealth could be used to gain combat advantage in other ways besides hiding. For example, if your party member distracts a guard while you succeed at using stealth to get close, they would not be aware of your attack. No, you wouldn't be hidden from view. But you would be able to take advantage of your distraction to attack your target unawares.

As I said in the beginning of the thread, this could have been written clearer. But the actual mechanics are simple if basic English is applied.