Is Stealth the new Grapple?

[Phesic]

"Stealthart of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily."
in the Stealth skill description

This still doesn't give me a clue as to why people find it so confusing. But thank you for pointing that out.

 

[buzz]

If at any point in time during a round of combat the target of your stealth attempt has direct line of sight to you, your stealth fails. If you have cover or concealment, you can stealth.

The first sentence above and the second don't agree with each other.

Line of sight really doesn't matter. It's unblocked LoS that matters (p.188). If the PC has Cover or Concealment, they can use Stealth as part of some other action (attacking, moving, drawing a weapon, whatever). If a creature doesn't have Line of Sight to the PC, the PC doesn't need to worry about Stealth, because the creature by definition can't see them.

What specific actions are confusing?

What I've seen most often so far is figuring out when Stealth can be used. E.g., if a PC begins their move in a square without Cover or Concealment, but moves into an area with Cover or Concealment in the process of moving, can they still use Stealth? Or the whole debate about how Shadow Walk interacts with Stealth.

I honestly don't think it's that bad, and I don't think it's nearly the session-stopper that grapple was. My experience with my group is simply that they're still thinking in terms of 3.5, where Hide/Move Silent was always part of a move. I think you need to put that idea away before approaching 4e Stealth, and things will work out okay.

Regardless, WotC really ought to do a FAQ entry or, better yet, a Dragon article that fleshes out how they intended Stealth to be used.

 

[Phesic]

The first sentence above and the second don't agree with each other.

Line of sight really doesn't matter. It's unblocked LoS that matters (p.188). If the PC has Cover or Concealment, they can use Stealth as part of some other action (attacking, moving, drawing a weapon, whatever). If a creature doesn't have Line of Sight to the PC, the PC doesn't need to worry about Stealth, because the creature by definition can't see them.


What I've seen most often so far is figuring out when Stealth can be used. E.g., if a PC begins their move in a square without Cover or Concealment, but moves into an area with Cover or Concealment in the process of moving, can they still use Stealth? Or the whole debate about how Shadow Walk interacts with Stealth.

I honestly don't think it's that bad, and I don't think it's nearly the session-stopper that grapple was. My experience with my group is simply that they're still thinking in terms of 3.5, where Hide/Move Silent was always part of a move. I think you need to put that idea away before approaching 4e Stealth, and things will work out okay.

Regardless, WotC really ought to do a FAQ entry or, better yet, a Dragon article that fleshes out how they intended Stealth to be used.

Thank you for some actual examples.

For combat, it really boils down to:

"Cover or Concealment: Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check. You have to maintain cover or concealment to remain unnoticed. If a creature has unblocked line of sight to you (that is, you lack any cover or concealment), the creature automatically sees you (no Perception check required)."

and most importantly, this from Distracted creatures (PHB 188):

"In combat, creatures are assumed to be paying attention in all directions"

In the wording of the Skill and of combat, as soon as you gain concealment or cover during a move, you can attempt to stealth another action as long as you maintain maintain cover or concealment.

As for the Shadow Walk. It plainly grants concealment until the end of your next turn. That would make using stealth in the open a lot easier.

For Out of Combat purposes, you could move 2 squares while behind cover or concealment then move the remainder using the concealment granted by Shadow Walk. Of course, there will be that lovely -5 penalty for moving more than 2 squares.

For in combat purposes, Shadow Walk would just make you harder to hit and set up a condition that would allow you to take stealth actions. The fun part is mixing this with ethereal stride...

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

As you say, Mearls makes it clear that there is an intent with Stealth to support Combat Advantage.

What isn't at all clear is what the intent is about what happens when the enemy wants to find the stealther and fight back. The mechanics don't help: they're spread all over the place and omit critical pieces of information.

To which confusion, CSR's have been some help, but also I believe some hindrance.

-vk

This isn't even in dispute. It has been answered in the FAQ:

"16. What are the benefits of being hidden?

There are several benefits of being hidden from an enemy - you have combat advantage against them and they will have a more difficult time targeting you because you are unseen. Page 281 of the Player's Handbook explains the rules for targeting unseen creatures."

Beyond that, Mearls second quote describes the "big picture" and clearly expands beyond the original question of rogues gaining combat advantage. He clearly states:

"In other words, the rogue or ranger are the best PCs for hiding, not the wizard with an invisibility spell."

Hiding provides both offensive and defensive advantages. Page 281 describes the defensive advantages. It's only confusing if you want an answer that isn't there.

 

[MarkB]

This isn't even in dispute. It has been answered in the FAQ:

"16. What are the benefits of being hidden?

There are several benefits of being hidden from an enemy - you have combat advantage against them and they will have a more difficult time targeting you because you are unseen. Page 281 of the Player's Handbook explains the rules for targeting unseen creatures."

Beyond that, Mearls second quote describes the "big picture" and clearly expands beyond the original question of rogues gaining combat advantage. He clearly states:

"In other words, the rogue or ranger are the best PCs for hiding, not the wizard with an invisibility spell."

Hiding provides both offensive and defensive advantages. Page 281 describes the defensive advantages. It's only confusing if you want an answer that isn't there.

The rules on page 281 assume a creature that is not merely unseen but actually invisible. There's a lot of debate as to whether the sections dealing with locating an invisible creature should be applied in full, in part, or not at all.

Even the second part of those rules, the part that deals with actually targeting the creature, seem to cause some dissent. Ranged attacks take a -5 penalty by those rules, but that penalty is explicitly for total concealment, so does it apply if a hidden creature has only regular concealment - or if it has no concealment, but only cover?

The FAQ is of little use in answering these questions, as it simply states that the rules are on page 281 - not whether or not the entire sidebar must be used intact in this case.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

"1. The game's math assumes that the rogue gets sneak attack with just about every attack he makes. If the rogues in your game are constantly gaining combat advantage, it really isn't a big deal." - Mike Mearls

"One thing to keep in mind is that one of the big picture changes in 4e was to move stealth and hiding from spells to skills. In other words, the rogue or ranger are the best PCs for hiding, not the wizard with an invisibility spell.

The spell is still useful, but it is now much more limited and harder to use over and over again.

With that in mind, when you are DMing it's OK to be liberal with letting people use the skill." - Mike Mearls

We've received clarification, albeit unofficial. And even unofficial, the information regarding the math of the game and big picture changes clearly displays the intent. If you don't like that intent and want to limit stealth more, you're free to do so in your game...as long as your players go along with it. And, there is official clarification on what being hidden means in the FAQ.

It isn't that the answers aren't there, it's just that they aren't the answers you want.

Not really. This only clarifies that rogues were designed to deal a lot of damage. It doesn't say anything about everyone rolling Stealth every single time they're in cover just so they can become hidden and gain the defensive benefits of being unseen.

Do you really think there would be multiple threads about this on every D&D message board if it were honestly so clear?

 

[seusomon]

This still doesn't give me a clue as to why people find it so confusing. But thank you for pointing that out.

Hi Phesic -

There are dozens of threads here and on the WotC site, where confusion and disagreement about stealth are quite apparent. Here are a few of the issues I recall coming up in those threads (apologies if I misunderstand or mischaracterize any of these issues):

1. A character needs concealment or cover to make a stealth check. Allies provide cover against ranged attacks. Can I stand behind an ally and use stealth to hide from my enemies and make sneak attacks against them?

2. I hide behind a tree. As long as I am in that single square, I have cover and concealment. If I move out, I am immediately spotted. Can I pick my nose using stealth as a free action, declare that my enemies are now "unaware" of me, and use sneak attack? Can I do this repeatedly, round after round, standing in the same spot, sneakily picking my nose?

3. Is the enemy's perception check active or passive? When and why? If the enemies make active perception checks, we have maybe 20 goblins all trying to spot me while I pick my nose behind the tree. This happens every round. And maybe my allies are making stealth checks too. Isn't this a bit much?

4. Making an attack means my enemies are no longer unaware of me. What do I need to do, stealthily, to make them unaware of me again. Do I need to change location, do any action at all with a successful stealth check, or just wait for my next turn?

5. What does "unaware of me" actually mean? That my enemies do not know that I exist? That they do not know my general whereabouts? That they do not know my exact location? That they do not know the details of what I am doing this moment? The answer to that question has a big impact on how useful stealth is to establish combat advantage by the "enemies unaware of you" criteria.

6. If you pass a stealth check against one enemy, but fail against his buddy, do you assume the buddy lets him know what's up and ruins your combat advantage?

...and so on.

The official replies haven't been entirely consistent with each other, or with the RAW. We get the impression that rogues are supposed to be using stealth -> enemies unaware -> combat advantage -> sneak attack almost all the time, but that's a chain with a number of links to it, and a common-sense approach would often result in at least one of those links breaking fairly regularly.

There's also a confusion about stealth making the enemy "unaware of you" and the rules about unseen adversaries. Unaware = unseen = invisible?

In a rules set where almost every condition is very clearly and unambiguously defined, both in terms of its causes and its consequences, we are having to guess our way through the condition "hidden"/"enemy unaware of you", both in terms of how you get that condition and in terms of what you can actually do when you have it, without losing it.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

The rules on page 281 assume a creature that is not merely unseen but actually invisible. There's a lot of debate as to whether the sections dealing with locating an invisible creature should be applied in full, in part, or not at all.

Even the second part of those rules, the part that deals with actually targeting the creature, seem to cause some dissent. Ranged attacks take a -5 penalty by those rules, but that penalty is explicitly for total concealment, so does it apply if a hidden creature has only regular concealment - or if it has no concealment, but only cover?

The FAQ is of little use in answering these questions, as it simply states that the rules are on page 281 - not whether or not the entire sidebar must be used intact in this case.

Page 281 addresses multiple aspects of Concealment, not only invisibility. For example:

"Total Concealment (-5 Penalty to Attack Roles)t: You can't see the target. The target is invisible, in a totally obscured square, or in a heavily obscured square and not adjacent to you."

The FAQ says, if you are hidden, you are unseen and the rules for targeting an unseen creature are used to attack you. There is nothing to suggest that only some of the rules for attacking an unseen target are used.

If you aren't looking for things that aren't there or looking for an excuse to exclude something, there is nothing there that isn't unclear.

 

[SteveC]

Here's a simple question that's come up several times in my game:

Suppose you have a fighter with a rogue armed with crossbow standing right behind him. The rogue has concealment against anything on the other side of the fighter, so can he make a stealth check as part of an attack? If he beats the target's passive perception, he gets combat advantage and can sneak attack, right?

When the rogue takes the shot the target automatically spots him (right?) but can he simply repeat the same move each turn? He has concealment, after all.

Handling something like that gives me a real headache, as I'm trying to combine RAW with RAI and something that makes sense to my players and I in the context of the game. Thoughts and comments are appreciated...

--Steve

 

[Phesic]

First, thank you!

It's hard to discuss a broken or unclear rule without some examples of why it's unclear.

Hi Phesic -

There are dozens of threads here and on the WotC site, where confusion and disagreement about stealth are quite apparent. Here are a few of the issues I recall coming up in those threads (apologies if I misunderstand or mischaracterize any of these issues):

1. A character needs concealment or cover to make a stealth check. Allies provide cover against ranged attacks. Can I stand behind an ally and use stealth to hide from my enemies and make sneak attacks against them?

2. I hide behind a tree. As long as I am in that single square, I have cover and concealment. If I move out, I am immediately spotted. Can I pick my nose using stealth as a free action, declare that my enemies are now "unaware" of me, and use sneak attack? Can I do this repeatedly, round after round, standing in the same spot, sneakily picking my nose?

3. Is the enemy's perception check active or passive? When and why? If the enemies make active perception checks, we have maybe 20 goblins all trying to spot me while I pick my nose behind the tree. This happens every round. And maybe my allies are making stealth checks too. Isn't this a bit much?

4. Making an attack means my enemies are no longer unaware of me. What do I need to do, stealthily, to make them unaware of me again. Do I need to change location, do any action at all with a successful stealth check, or just wait for my next turn?

5. What does "unaware of me" actually mean? That my enemies do not know that I exist? That they do not know my general whereabouts? That they do not know my exact location? That they do not know the details of what I am doing this moment? The answer to that question has a big impact on how useful stealth is to establish combat advantage by the "enemies unaware of you" criteria.

6. If you pass a stealth check against one enemy, but fail against his buddy, do you assume the buddy lets him know what's up and ruins your combat advantage?

...and so on.

The official replies haven't been entirely consistent with each other, or with the RAW. We get the impression that rogues are supposed to be using stealth -> enemies unaware -> combat advantage -> sneak attack almost all the time, but that's a chain with a number of links to it, and a common-sense approach would often result in at least one of those links breaking fairly regularly.

There's also a confusion about stealth making the enemy "unaware of you" and the rules about unseen adversaries. Unaware = unseen = invisible?

In a rules set where almost every condition is very clearly and unambiguously defined, both in terms of its causes and its consequences, we are having to guess our way through the condition "hidden"/"enemy unaware of you", both in terms of how you get that condition and in terms of what you can actually do when you have it, without losing it.

I think I have to revise all my previous answers.

All of these things are predicated on the ability of stealth to grant combat advantage against an opponent. It does so only when a character isn't aware of you. Once you engage in combat, unless you can become invisible, it's impossible for stealth to grant combat advantage. That's what bluff is for. Now, with cover or concealment, you could apply something to your blade using stealth without someone knowing (like poison or the like.)

Once you've been spotted, stealth won't grant combat advantage until the end of the encounter.

I can't find a statement anywhere that says you can make a stealth roll to grant combat advantage.