WotC CS answers some Stealth and Shadow Walk questions

[ForbidenMaster]

Now that we know what type of action it is, my question is do you have to move? Lets say you meet the requirements for stealth (total concelement, superior cover, etc.) but you have not taken any actions this turn, and prior to this turn you were not hidden. Can you simply spend a move action in order to stealth, or do you actually have to move?

Also, must you always maintain cover, or can you stay hidden if you move from cover to cover, but in between you loose cover? Essentially should the line "If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy" actually say "If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy at any point, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy"?

 

[clearstream]

Now that we know what type of action it is, my question is do you have to move? Lets say you meet the requirements for stealth (total concelement, superior cover, etc.) but you have not taken any actions this turn, and prior to this turn you were not hidden. Can you simply spend a move action in order to stealth, or do you actually have to move?

I've argued elsewhere that you can Move 0, and for the life of me I believe there's buried somewhere a CSR confirming that. I'll post a question.

Also, must you always maintain cover, or can you stay hidden if you move from cover to cover, but in between you loose cover? Essentially should the line "If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy" actually say "If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy at any point, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy"?

I've argued elsewhere that usually in the vernacular if means it happens after, while when means it happens as soon as. That is sustained here: see Not Remaining Hidden at the bottom of the Compendium entry.

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Some other comments:

They don't say what kind of action allows enemies to search for you, which will let people enjoy themselves fighting over minor or standard. Since you're invisible, surely it'll be minor.

They're going to need to errata Fleeting Ghost. Can I use it to make a Stealth check just anywhere?

On the good side, Diversion will let you get hidden once per combat, while distraction only works outside it. Phew.

-vk

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

Kind of nerfing it, but

Far more than kind of. Look through Keep on the Shadowfell and count the number of places you can hide if this is the rule that stands. I've found: One place where there's a tapestry and another where you can tip over a table or bed and hide behind it (and knocking over a table and hiding behind it just screams stealthy). None of the outside areas have any forest that allow for stealth. The game would play completely differently with these changes.

For a rogue, you'll pretty much always have to use bluff, which costs a standard action, twice per combat to get combat advantage and to hide to get combat advantage which is two rounds of losing actions to (maybe) be able to use your class features. It also adds MAD to brutal scoundrel builds. Epic lack of fun.

 

[Mengu]

Far more than kind of. Look through Keep on the Shadowfell and count the number of places you can hide if this is the rule that stands. I've found: One place where there's a tapestry and another where you can tip over a table or bed and hide behind it (and knocking over a table and hiding behind it just screams stealthy). None of the outside areas have any forest that allow for stealth. The game would play completely differently with these changes.

I don't remember the maps too well, but I think at least one or two of the outdoor maps have plenty of lightly obscured squares (trees). And 5 or more lightly obscured squares = total concealment. There are also plenty of corners you can run around and hide. Next turn, you pop back out and nail something.

It's a nerf for sure, but it's rather annoying to argue with the Warlock every round as to whether he can hide or not. At least this clears up the intent of Shadow Walking. Whenever you move 3 squares or more, attacks against you suffer a -2 penalty. That's the main benefit. It's not meant to be ninja invisibility every round.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

I don't remember the maps too well, but I think at least one or two of the outdoor maps have plenty of lightly obscured squares (trees). And 5 or more lightly obscured squares = total concealment. There are also plenty of corners you can run around and hide. Next turn, you pop back out and nail something.

It's a nerf for sure, but it's rather annoying to argue with the Warlock every round as to whether he can hide or not. At least this clears up the intent of Shadow Walking. Whenever you move 3 squares or more, attacks against you suffer a -2 penalty. That's the main benefit. It's not meant to be ninja invisibility every round.

Take another look on the maps - there are very few places where there are five wooded squares lined up, and those are, from what I see, pointing in a single direction (and go five squares into the woods to hide, then go five squares back out to do anything isn't exactly an enjoyable couple rounds even if there were places with enough contiguous squares to do it). And, run around the corner and back, over and over, if it's even possible in melee, isn't exactly made of fun.

It may be annoying to argue with the warlock, but addressing the warlock ability by making stealth an unusable fun suck and in the process gimping Rogues and Rangers isn't the right answer.

 

[buzz]

Check out the compendium entry for stealth..

I'll have to check out the entry when I'm not at work (site is blocked), but this seems kind of lame.

 

[clearstream]

Far more than kind of. Look through Keep on the Shadowfell and count the number of places you can hide if this is the rule that stands. I've found: One place where there's a tapestry and another where you can tip over a table or bed and hide behind it (and knocking over a table and hiding behind it just screams stealthy). None of the outside areas have any forest that allow for stealth. The game would play completely differently with these changes.

That's a good point. I don't have KotS, but it might have been written with old Stealth in mind. We might see more SC or TC in future modules. Have you looked at Fleeting Ghost? As written, it grants you a check without looking to see if you have SC or TC. Not much help for Rangers, but that is At-Will ignore the cover requirement to get hidden for a Rogue.

For a rogue, you'll pretty much always have to use bluff, which costs a standard action, twice per combat to get combat advantage and to hide to get combat advantage which is two rounds of losing actions to (maybe) be able to use your class features. It also adds MAD to brutal scoundrel builds. Epic lack of fun.

I keep thinking Bluff is once per encounter. Is it twice?

About the 5-squares thing: as DM I'd likely let my Rogues and Rangers start an encounter hidden, if there were woods or whatever around the encounter area and they weren't seen approaching. That might not be right for KotS of courses... or is it?

-vk

 

[buzz]

A couple friends of mine were nice enough to send me the compendium entry. Read in full, I actually think it's pretty reasonable. It's much more clear, at least.

Hopefully, this will get released in a PHB update.

 

[clearstream]

A couple friends of mine were nice enough to send me the compendium entry. Read in full, I actually think it's pretty reasonable. It's much more clear, at least.

Hopefully, this will get released in a PHB update.

Buzz, the CSR I just questioned says you can't Move 0. That is odd, because a power like Fleeting Ghost according to the FAQ would let you move 0, by my reading.

4. If a power allows me to move myself or another creature a certain distance, must whatever’s being moved go the full distance?

No, these numbers are maximums; whomever controls the power can choose a lesser distance if desired.

So if you have speed 5 and you use FG, you can go 5, or 4, or 3, or, 2, or 1, or... 0? I'd give odds that the CSR response is not the official intent on this; or perhaps it is and they mean powers to be an exception? Rogues can move 0, but Clerics can't? Hmm... what if you have speed 1?!

-vk

 

[Brentos]

I think the CSR is correct. There is no Move 0. Moving less then 5 = 5,4,3,2,or 1 not 0, 0.5, -1, -2.1753, -3, etc., which are all less then 5. They probably didn't feel that they needed to say "A move = between 1 and max squares in integers". A move = 0, just means you didn't move, so no action was taken.