New stealth stuff from WotC

[Pielorinho]

The 5' pillar won't work. There is no situation when a 5' pillar grants superior cover, as you'll always be able to see 2 vertexes along one edge of the pillar.

I'm not sure that's true, if you hide directly behind it on the diagonal. Remember that you have to choose just one corner from which you're going to be tracing. (I'm not great with spatial puzzles, though, so I could be wrong).

Daniel

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Hmm. So if a rogue with deft strike moved out of cover and attacked (all as one action), would he get combat advantage?

Seems like it depends on how you want to interpret the "Not remaining hidden" clause.

I think this is meant to be a strength of Deft Strike, because you keep the advantages of being hidden until the action is resolved. If you had to use a move action and then attack, I'd argue that you are no longer hidden either at some point during or upon ending that move action (which of the two is up for debate), but in either case before the attack. With Deft Strike those 2 squares of movement are part of that same action--essentially you can hide and then deftly lunge out from hiding to strike.

Note also that it says that if you move more than 2 squares you need another Stealth check, so that fits nicely with Deft Strike as well. It also suggests that you could just manage to charge at someone from hiding (minimum 2 squares movement to charge) because charge is also a single, standard action that includes movement, but that you could not charge from hiding and get that combat advantage from having hidden if you charge more than those 2 squares. Wait...by that compendium not sure that you wouldn't keep the benefit until the entire action is resolved; same issue as whether you lose benefits of stealth during or after a full move's worth of distance is covered.

Notice, though, that with Deft Strike you could potentially dart out 10' from hiding and attack, then move back to the hiding spot (or to a new spot with sup cover or tot concealment), and make another Stealth check. If going to the old spot or a new spot likewise within 2 squares, you don't even take the -5 penalty.

 

[Valesin]

My problem with this ruling is that in an effort to "fix" a (non?)problem with the warlock, they have made an aspect of the game that should be fun and common and completely nerfed it. The fact that you have to totally block all line of sight to every opponent in order to "hide" harkens way too much back to 2nd edition.

And really, was the warlock all that broken before? At the cost of at least one feat (2 if he wants SA 1x encounter) and buying up Dex at the expense of Int and either Con or Cha, you had a guy who could occasionally "vanish" from sight until his next attack. And he took a -5 to his stealth check to do so, meaning he was rarely all that successful.

Given the fact that both the rogue and ranger can attack from melee or range and each does more damage on average than the warlock and they get weapon proficiency bonuses to all their attacks that the warlock will never get, is the ability for the magically sneaky/tricky character to to be occasionally hard to detect worth making stealth in combat nigh impossible?

 

[Benly]

Rogues can still do that, they just have to rely on distractions and trickery more. Don't forget there are utility powers that can help with this.

Oh, right. There's, um..

..um..

Okay, let me go over the utility powers here. Just the ones with stealth applications, this could take a while otherwise.

Fleeting Ghost (at-will, 2): What this does depends on who you ask. By an absolutely literal reading, this does in fact let you hide without any cover or concealment, which is pretty fantastic if so. On the other hand, it seems like the intent is to prevent the movement penalties to stealth rather than just be a blank check. Needs clarification.

Master of Deceit (encounter, 2): Useful for starting a distraction, but the problem remains that distractions are 1/encounter.

Chameleon (at-will, 6): Actually if you read this literally it's the best stealth power in the game. Reading literally, you can move out of concealment, trigger Chameleon, and from that point forward remain hidden while whaling on him with a baseball bat as long as you're concealed again by the end of your next turn. This should be the power swap of choice for ninja warlocks in that case.

Shadow Stride (at-will, 10): This.. actually appears to do what Fleeting Ghost is apparently supposed to do. At best it's identical to FG and at worst it's much worse. Weird.

Hide In Plain Sight (at-will, 16): This is a great ability, don't get me wrong, but you have to already be hidden to use it. So it doesn't help with the newly-introduced problem.

Hide From The Light (daily, 22): This is nice but, again, requires you to already be hidden. This being level 22 and daily indicates to me that Chameleon isn't supposed to do what it's written as doing.

Impossible To Catch (encounter, Master Infiltrator PP): Oh! This is the one you were talking about, right? The utility power that now lets you hide again without having to run away, around a corner, and back out from around the corner. I guess that works, yeah.

There are a bunch of utility powers that let you stay hidden, but that's not the problem anymore. The problem now is that you need to run off and around a corner before you can become hidden. There is one power that unquestionably addresses that (once per encounter), and it's actually a paragon path power. Fleeting Ghost addresses it with an extremely literal interpretation; if you are interpreting very literally then it's true that Fleeting Ghost and Chameleon are all you need to be as the ninja.

 

[Lauberfen]

I'm not sure that's true, if you hide directly behind it on the diagonal. Remember that you have to choose just one corner from which you're going to be tracing. (I'm not great with spatial puzzles, though, so I could be wrong).

Daniel

Your right, of course. If you hide on the diagonal, there are a few positions (including opposite on the diagonal) that an enemy could only see one vertex from any given corner of their square. I suppose a square pillar is wider across the diagonal...

 

[jaelis]

The interaction of Shadow Stride with the new rules seems clear enough to me.

The rogue starts out hiding in square A, where he has cover. He wants to move to square B, which also has cover. To get there, he has to move through one or more squares with no cover.

There are two interpretations for the new rules:
1) You stop being hidden as soon as you move into a square with no cover. Shadow Stride fixes this... when using the power, you can move from A to B and remain hidden the whole time.

2) You stop being hidden at the end of your move action, and cannot immediately hide again. So now you can get to B, but can't hide once you are there. Again, Shadow Stride fixes it, and lets you stay hidden the whole time.

So either way, Shadow Stride lets you move from A to B and stay hidden, something that is otherwise not possible.

 

[clearstream]

I think this is meant to be a strength of Deft Strike, because you keep the advantages of being hidden until the action is resolved. If you had to use a move action and then attack, I'd argue that you are no longer hidden either at some point during or upon ending that move action (which of the two is up for debate), but in either case before the attack. With Deft Strike those 2 squares of movement are part of that same action--essentially you can hide and then deftly lunge out from hiding to strike.

Note also that it says that if you move more than 2 squares you need another Stealth check, so that fits nicely with Deft Strike as well. It also suggests that you could just manage to charge at someone from hiding (minimum 2 squares movement to charge) because charge is also a single, standard action that includes movement, but that you could not charge from hiding and get that combat advantage from having hidden if you charge more than those 2 squares. Wait...by that compendium not sure that you wouldn't keep the benefit until the entire action is resolved; same issue as whether you lose benefits of stealth during or after a full move's worth of distance is covered.

Notice, though, that with Deft Strike you could potentially dart out 10' from hiding and attack, then move back to the hiding spot (or to a new spot with sup cover or tot concealment), and make another Stealth check. If going to the old spot or a new spot likewise within 2 squares, you don't even take the -5 penalty.

The advantage of Deft Strike over Charge is that Deft Strike does not have to be the last thing you do in your turn. You can then use a move right after to dart back into SC/TC and re-hide.

-vk

 

[jaelis]

Using Dex instead of Str for the attack is another big advantage for a rogue.

 

[JDillard]

At first I agreed with your interpretation Kordeth, but the more I think about it the more I think the other interpretation of "remaining hidden" is proably correct.

Here's some thoughts...

What if it wasn't your movement that causes you to lose cover. What if a bad guy takes a move action and steps around the corner, then moves another five squares. Does he not see you crouching behind the wall, even though you're in plain sight, until he finishes moving?

I think so, yes. If it seems really oddly illogical, just assume that when you're moving you're focused more on moving and less on looking all around you. The bad guy doesn't have a chance to notice Rogue until he's finished his move. Then, if the Rogue has no more cover or concealment he gets seen. Otherwise, he stays hidden.

The only way it makes any kind of rational sense (and doesn't make the rogue utility 10 Shadow Stride a useless power) is if you read the literal meaning of "action that causes you to become unhidden" (that is, the action itself causes you to be unhidden--"attacking causes you to be no longer hidden" versus "if you lose cover/concealment, you are no longer hidden," where it's the loss of C/C that unhides you, not the action of moving) or if you follow the reaction rules of effectively treating each square of movement as its own "action" for purposes of resolving Stealth.

Disagree. As per the new clarification:

Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action you must make a new Stealth check with a -5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is -10. If the enemy's passive perception check beats your Stealth check, you are no longer hidden.

This happens regardless of if the movement happens within cover or concealment. Which means, Shadow Stride still fairly useful.

Without, through non-cover: You make a move action from Total Cover through non-cover into Regular cover. You've not "Kept Hidden", because you've gone through non-cover spaces. At the end of the move, you are no longer hidden. (If, and only if, you ended up in another Total Cover space here, you could make a new Stealth check, at -5 for moving more than 2. This starts up whole new "Hidden" situation).

Without, through cover: You make a move action from Total Cover through Regular cover to another Regular cover space. You move more than two, you must make another Stealth check, this time at -5 (as per "Keep Still").

With, through non-cover: You make a move action from Total Cover through non-cover to a Regular Cover space. Due to Shadow Stride you still count as "hidden" through the entire move, and when you make your Stealth check at the end it has no penalty.

With, through cover: Same as "With, through non-cover"

Seems to me like Shadow Stride is actually pretty fantastic, particularly for an at-will utility.

No, because a) it makes no sense logically and b) it renders Shadow Stride a do-nothing power. The action of moving isn't what unhides you--you can move while hidden as long as you follow all the rules. It's losing cover/concealment that unhides you, and that's not an action.

I believe, technically, it's the loss of cover or concealment during a move action, thus falls into the little bit at the end about remaining hidden until the end of the action.

That's because most times it doesn't have to be. In this case, it does (or we need to accept that losing cover is not an action and thus causes you to unhide immediately, not at the end of the action that caused you to lose cover/concealment), for the reasons pointed out above.

I think I adequately argued against this. Did I miss anything?

 

[Pickles JG]

Fleeting Ghost (at-will, 2): What this does depends on who you ask. By an absolutely literal reading, this does in fact let you hide without any cover or concealment, which is pretty fantastic if so. On the other hand, it seems like the intent is to prevent the movement penalties to stealth rather than just be a blank check. Needs clarification.

Chameleon (at-will, 6): Actually if you read this literally it's the best stealth power in the game. Reading literally, you can move out of concealment, trigger Chameleon, and from that point forward remain hidden while whaling on him with a baseball bat as long as you're concealed again by the end of your next turn. This should be the power swap of choice for ninja warlocks in that case.

Shadow Stride (at-will, 10): This.. actually appears to do what Fleeting Ghost is apparently supposed to do. At best it's identical to FG and at worst it's much worse. Weird.

Hide In Plain Sight (at-will, 16): This is a great ability, don't get me wrong, but you have to already be hidden to use it. So it doesn't help with the newly-introduced problem.

Hide From The Light (daily, 22): This is nice but, again, requires you to already be hidden. This being level 22 and daily indicates to me that Chameleon isn't supposed to do what it's written as doing.

Fleeting Ghost is level 2 so it will not be overwhelming; it lets you ignore the -5 for moving quickly when you stealth.

Chameleon is an immediate action so you cant take it on your turn so no ninja death flailing. It lets you count as being in cover/concealed if an enemy moves to where you are not (or your ally's smoke grenade wears off). It does not override the other things that stop you being hidden.

Shadow stride lets you hop from cover to cover while remaining hidden even if the intervening spaces are not covered (which indicates you can lose stealth after any square of movement not just after your whole move action)

Hide in Plain Sight is tricky as you need to be hidden & cant move. So you need temporary cover like the Drow ability to staart it up. Goes nicely with the infiltrator Impossible to Catch :O.

Hide From the Light means you can duck into cover & then viola invisible & slow )). Nice power

The new stealth rules look very good (clear, workable & useful). The only issue for me is becoming unhidden while moving - it seems you can only use it to get CA in ranged attacks, except in very favourable terrain.