A Question on Minions...

[CodexofRome]

Yep. Thus the major problem with the minion rules. If they are supposed to be that fragile then let them take half damage as normal and get wiped out in huge blocks. Nothing to make a wizard feel more useless than hurling a fireball into a group of 10 minions and only hitting 1 or 2 of them. The DM can simply send in more waves. Minions (if used at all) should be like potato chips- no one can kill just one.

The ONLY problem is that some DMs do not understand the way to use the Minion rules.

I'm sure the Wizard feels useless if the DM says the room is filled with Kobold Minions. Minion is a game term, not an in-character term. Those who don't grasp the significance of that difference are never going to understand what the Minions concept, or properly apply it, or even run a decent game.

Don't tell your players they're facing Minions! That's something a character would never know! The only thing a character would know is that they were facing Kobolds, and some of them fought harder than others. That's it!

If you as the DM tell them straight out: "don't roll damage dice, they're just minions," you literally are ruining the suspense of the encounter for your players. Yes, the players can figure it out the guys who die easy are minions. But, the only reasons a DM would use a term like minion during a game session is because they are either lazy, stupid or bored. Which is it?

In addition, in game terms, a fireball doesn't outright kill any Kobolds except Minions. With an 18 Intelligence and no other bonuses, the best damage a fireball can do is 22 (3d6+Int). A Kobold Slyblade has 42 HP. Even a Kobold Skirmisher has 27 HPs and won't be killed outright by a fireball.
So players shouldn't simply expect to kill Kobolds with a fireball. Unless the DM tells them they're fighting Minions.

Don't tell your players anything more than they're facing Kobolds! Don't take the suspense away from the game. Make them roll damage dice for each and every hit. If they are facing minions, you as the DM know the outcome, but your players should never be sure of anything!

 

[Runestar]

The problem with that is that it would make minions completely useless. Minions would then be unlikely to see any game time as any wizard worth his salt would just initiate combat with a AoE spell and wipe them all out before they have a chance to act.

I guess a compromise has to be made somewhere. They need to be fragile enough so that a single hit can kill them (for that cinematic feel), but you don't want them to be that fragile that they keel over the moment someone so much as sneezes on them.

I am already having trouble coming to terms with the possibility of an epic wizard being able to wipe out multiple minions with a single application of thunderwave or scorching burst, while the same at-will power would barely scratch the hide of an equivalent level epic foe (and 4 minions are supposed to be as tough as 1 equivalent level enemy). This makes me wonder if they were properly playtested past heroic tier, since said concept really only seems viable at lower lvs, when the hp disparity between minions and normal monsters are not yet so great...

 

[Shabe]

The problem with that is that it would make minions completely useless. Minions would then be unlikely to see any game time as any wizard worth his salt would just initiate combat with a AoE spell and wipe them all out before they have a chance to act.

I guess a compromise has to be made somewhere. They need to be fragile enough so that a single hit can kill them (for that cinematic feel), but you don't want them to be that fragile that they keel over the moment someone so much as sneezes on them.

I am already having trouble coming to terms with the possibility of an epic wizard being able to wipe out multiple minions with a single application of thunderwave or scorching burst, while the same at-will power would barely scratch the hide of an equivalent level epic foe (and 4 minions are supposed to be as tough as 1 equivalent level enemy). This makes me wonder if they were properly playtested past heroic tier, since said concept really only seems viable at lower lvs, when the hp disparity between minions and normal monsters are not yet so great...

Got to completely agree with you there, especially if the wizard in my party is still chucking out his cloud of daggers that does one point of damage.
Maybe something as easy as a minion takes 1 hit from at wills 2 from encounter powers and 3 from dailies and give minions 1 hit per tier? Still adds quite a bit of accounting though.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The ONLY problem is that some DMs do not understand the way to use the Minion rules.

I'm sure the Wizard feels useless if the DM says the room is filled with Kobold Minions. Minion is a game term, not an in-character term. Those who don't grasp the significance of that difference are never going to understand what the Minions concept, or properly apply it, or even run a decent game.

Don't tell your players they're facing Minions! That's something a character would never know! The only thing a character would know is that they were facing Kobolds, and some of them fought harder than others. That's it!

If you as the DM tell them straight out: "don't roll damage dice, they're just minions," you literally are ruining the suspense of the encounter for your players. Yes, the players can figure it out the guys who die easy are minions. But, the only reasons a DM would use a term like minion during a game session is because they are either lazy, stupid or bored. Which is it?

In addition, in game terms, a fireball doesn't outright kill any Kobolds except Minions. With an 18 Intelligence and no other bonuses, the best damage a fireball can do is 22 (3d6+Int). A Kobold Slyblade has 42 HP. Even a Kobold Skirmisher has 27 HPs and won't be killed outright by a fireball.
So players shouldn't simply expect to kill Kobolds with a fireball. Unless the DM tells them they're fighting Minions.

Don't tell your players anything more than they're facing Kobolds! Don't take the suspense away from the game. Make them roll damage dice for each and every hit. If they are facing minions, you as the DM know the outcome, but your players should never be sure of anything!

A DM doesn't have to use the term minion for the players to figure it out.

As you have pointed out, anyone who has encounted kobolds knows that a single fireball won't do the trick so if a wizard hurls a fireball into a group of kobolds and some fall over, then the odds that they are minions is pretty high.

Any player who does not notice this happening is dumb, dumber, or dumberer, which is it?

 

[CodexofRome]

A DM doesn't have to use the term minion for the players to figure it out.

As you have pointed out, anyone who has encounted kobolds knows that a single fireball won't do the trick so if a wizard hurls a fireball into a group of kobolds and some fall over, then the odds that they are minions is pretty high.

Any player who does not notice this happening is dumb, dumber, or dumberer, which is it?

They're probably as bright as you are. Which means they probably don't give a rats ass what technical term their DM uses. They care that they kicked some butt. And if their DM takes that away from them by telling them their foes are only minions and not to roll any damage dice, then they'll be smart enough to give up on the DM.

A player who argues that his fireball should have killed the minions in the room, is a player with a crappy DM.

A good DM is going to mix up the minions with soldiers, brutes, strikers and lurkers.

All the characters should know is that they're facing Kobolds. The players will indeed recognize some of what they're facing, but a good DM is going to make sure that just when his players think they have it all figured out, there's a surprise waiting for them.

Like the one angry Kobold still standing after the fireball. The one angry Kobold that won't die so easily.

 

[Shabe]

They're probably as bright as you are. Which means they probably don't give a rats ass what technical term their DM uses. They care that they kicked some butt. And if their DM takes that away from them by telling them their foes are only minions and not to roll any damage dice, then they'll be smart enough to give up on the DM.

A player who argues that his fireball should have killed the minions in the room, is a player with a crappy DM.

A good DM is going to mix up the minions with soldiers, brutes, strikers and lurkers.

All the characters should know is that they're facing Kobolds. The players will indeed recognize some of what they're facing, but a good DM is going to make sure that just when his players think they have it all figured out, there's a surprise waiting for them.

Like the one angry Kobold still standing after the fireball. The one angry Kobold that won't die so easily.

Erm that doesn't ring true. All minion creatures have descriptions which mean you can easily pick out which of the kobolds are weaker than the others, have a look through the monster manual the creatures get blatently differing descriptions.

Players and characters should be smart enough to know that a creature in rags with a shield and spear is not going to be as tough a cookie as the creature in leather armour with ambi swords, or the creature in leather with a huge dragon scale shield, or the creature who is crackling with arcane energy and wearing a dragon skull mask on its head.

 

[ExploderWizard]

They're probably as bright as you are. Which means they probably don't give a rats ass what technical term their DM uses. They care that they kicked some butt. And if their DM takes that away from them by telling them their foes are only minions and not to roll any damage dice, then they'll be smart enough to give up on the DM.

A player who argues that his fireball should have killed the minions in the room, is a player with a crappy DM.

A good DM is going to mix up the minions with soldiers, brutes, strikers and lurkers.

All the characters should know is that they're facing Kobolds. The players will indeed recognize some of what they're facing, but a good DM is going to make sure that just when his players think they have it all figured out, there's a surprise waiting for them.

Like the one angry Kobold still standing after the fireball. The one angry Kobold that won't die so easily.

Well of course its good to mix up troop types and not always have a "minion brigade" standing alone. The DM doesn't have to say "don't bother rolling for damage". I agree that doing so would be a bit of a buzzkill.

The biggest issue this thread brings up is the contadiction of the minion concept with regard to hit points.

The game assumes that hit points are abstract and not a measure of actual injury, instead being a measure of fighting effectiveness.

No problem. Self heals simply mean a recharge of fighting effectiveness.

Then we have minions who have 1 hp, which by the defined role of hp have little to no fighting effectiveness.

We are then told that minions are supposed to provide a credible threat without having any fighting effectiveness. The rules come out and say that they are crap foes by giving them 1 hp yet they are supposed to be represent credible threats? This does not compute.

 

[Runestar]

This then begs the question.

When the designers came up with the concept of minions, did they expect/assume the PCs to automatically be aware of who the minions were, and in a position to react accordingly? So the DM should not complain that the players are metagaming when the epic wizard opens up with a scorching burst to take out multiple minions.

Or are minions meant to be indistinguishable from normal enemies, which may fool PCs into expending encounter or even daily powers on them if they mistake them as normal foes?

The latter clearly makes minions a little more tricky. If the kobold minion is indistinguishable from a kobold warrior, my fighter may not think of cleaving him, even if that is clearly the best option.

 

[CodexofRome]

Erm that doesn't ring true. All minion creatures have descriptions which mean you can easily pick out which of the kobolds are weaker than the others, have a look through the monster manual the creatures get blatently differing descriptions.

Players and characters should be smart enough to know that a creature in rags with a shield and spear is not going to be as tough a cookie as the creature in leather armour with ambi swords, or the creature in leather with a huge dragon scale shield, or the creature who is crackling with arcane energy and wearing a dragon skull mask on its head.

Care to point out the descriptions of Kobold Minions? There is a stat block that includes equipment on page 167, but not one single line of description. That's something left to the DM. You know, the person with the imagination.

The difference being, stat blocks are things DMs manipulate to resolve encounters. Descriptions are what players are told about those they encounter.

How you choose to play the game is up to you, and is as valid as an opinion. But a DM that tells players, explicitly or implicitly, that they are facing minions is a DM who sucks.

 

[Tale]

This then begs the question.

When the designers came up with the concept of minions, did they expect/assume the PCs to automatically be aware of who the minions were, and in a position to react accordingly? So the DM should not complain that the players are metagaming when the epic wizard opens up with a scorching burst to take out multiple minions.

Or are minions meant to be indistinguishable from normal enemies, which may fool PCs into expending encounter or even daily powers on them if they mistake them as normal foes?

The latter clearly makes minions a little more tricky. If the kobold minion is indistinguishable from a kobold warrior, my fighter may not think of cleaving him, even if that is clearly the best option.

The game is fairly transparent. The rules, themselves, are not designed around the concept of tricking the players. The players should know they are minions, how you achieve that is up to the DM.