Seal of Binding+Divine Regeneration is NOT an automatic win

[theNater]

And if the people who go first do things like "Wrath of the Gods, +9 damage to every damage roll" then you're back to anything dying from the extra 450 damage.

Yup, if you stack yet another daily power on top of it, it functions as advertised.

True - it's totally fair to spend the first three rounds of combat dealing with his lackeys and catching Orcus in area effects (like an orb-ed Legion's Hold, that kinda thing) so that you can take him down with Seal once he's down to 80% health

Right, and Orcus running around for three rounds isn't going to put the cleric in a situation where Seal of Binding is not an option.

It's not like Orcus can one-shot the PCs or anything.

 

[LostSoul]

So what's the problem?

The problem is one of choice.

When one course of action is always the best option, it means that you don't have a meaningful choice to make. Should I use Power x or Power y? I can guarantee success if I use Power x; if I use Power y we might get a TPK.

Not much of a choice.

There's also the problem with all the other players sitting around doing nothing (i.e. making no meaningful choices).

 

[keterys]

There are three monsters that can survive average damage. Every appropriate level solo can survive minimum damage, and therefore the power.

And none can survive maximum damage. Yay?

Y'know, I'd kind of like to see how likely a party is to take out Orcus without him getting an action. If he does come out of it with over 200 hit points, they aren't guaranteed to drop him with one action each.

Action points good... I'm pretty sure Orcus counts as a "milestone". If you've got a tactical warlord that even helps solve the easy to hit equation.

 

[theNater]

Therefore 5 demigods, the typical party (and hey if demigod is so good why not) can take out 5 orcus' a day.

Yes, of course the typical party is 5 demigod clerics.

After all, there's no reason to play anything else.

 

[Stalker0]

Yes, of course the typical party is 5 demigod clerics.

After all, there's no reason to play anything else.

Not demigod clerics, but demigods likely. And there's plenty of stuff divine miracle can do with other classes...including the fun infinite damage from a vorpal weapon combo.

 

[theNater]

When one course of action is always the best option, it means that you don't have a meaningful choice to make. Should I use Power x or Power y? I can guarantee success if I use Power x; if I use Power y we might get a TPK.

Hitting with Seal of Binding is one of the best actions available to the PCs.

Missing with Seal of Binding is much less impressive.

It all depends on how much of a gambler one is. One can pin all of their hopes on a single wis vs. will roll, or one can ensure some progress with every daily power used.

 

[keterys]

Just so we're clear... are you trying to protest that seal of binding is broken but not completely utterly game broken... or are you trying to protest that it's safe and balanced?

I mean, it's not "Oh... I see you're playing a 1st level Elf Cleric... and yeah, I have it on good authority that at 30th you'll fight Orcus... so, hey, good game, you win." but it is "the DM should take steps to ensure that this one ability does not ruin entire battles and make the game dreadfully boring and anticlimatic" which does mean it's broken.

 

[theNater]

And none can survive maximum damage. Yay?

The point I'm trying to make is that it is not guaranteed to defeat the monster. The fact that it can is irrelevant.

Action points good... I'm pretty sure Orcus counts as a "milestone". If you've got a tactical warlord that even helps solve the easy to hit equation.

A milestone occurs at the completion of two encounters without an extended rest. I'm pretty sure Orcus does not count as a milestone.

Is the warlord increasing chance to hit with Tactical Presence on action points that may or may not be being used? Or is there a power involved? Wrath of the Gods(paladin 6) has made it clear that stacking another daily power onto the combo can make it automatic.

Just so we're clear... are you trying to protest that seal of binding is broken but not completely utterly game broken... or are you trying to protest that it's safe and balanced?

The first one. It's very broken, but it's not(quite) as broken as people have been suggesting.

I mean, it's not "Oh... I see you're playing a 1st level Elf Cleric... and yeah, I have it on good authority that at 30th you'll fight Orcus... so, hey, good game, you win." but it is "the DM should take steps to ensure that this one ability does not ruin entire battles and make the game dreadfully boring and anticlimatic" which does mean it's broken.

No argument here.

 

[Tale]

The point I'm trying to make is that it is not guaranteed to defeat the monster. The fact that it can is irrelevant.

BUNK it's irrelevant! Probability of an event is only even arguably irrelevant when that probability is prohibitively low. This is not. This only requires a single attack roll. And then, kill Orcus or not, it'll weaken him massively.

 

[keterys]

A milestone occurs at the completion of two encounters without an extended rest. I'm pretty sure Orcus does not count as a milestone.

You may want to read the definition of milestone in the DMG p123. It is true that it's generally just two encounters, but you shouldn't count encounters that are excessively easy "Crap, no action points, I find a kobold so we can have an encounter before we see the Lich" and that encounters that are difficult, particularly ones two or more levels higher may count as a milestone, quite specifically: "An encounter that's four or more levels above the party should count as two encounters".

Which is what Orcus's standard encounter is (34th), even if they're max 30th level.

Edit: And I was referring to getting a bonus to hit from tactical presence, though any number of encounter powers that reduce defenses or increase allies attacks would also work. Certainly if you're counting rounds and you know he's about to get out, readying stunning strike and stunning smite for when it ends may buy you a round of no action.

And minimum damage on 100d10s is 1 in a google too rare for it to be brought up in all seriousness.