Disarm rules

[mlooney]

The fact that disarming in actual combat is much harder to do than people think it is should figure into this whole mess some how.

While it can be done IRL, it's not something you should plan a combat around.

 

[generalhenry]

I'd have to say your interpretation of 0HP is a little off.

PCs are special. Monsters are done at 0 HP.

 

[mlooney]

Your class comparison list is ridiculous, since those are all classes D&D has always had. There has always been a fighter class. Just because WoW has a warrior class doesn't mean D&D somehow copied WoW by having the fighter class its always had in its new edition, nor wizard, cleric, paladin, ranger...

Just nit picking but the only classes D&D has "always had" are Fighter, Magic User and Cleric.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

PCs are special. Monsters are done at 0 HP.

Regardless- there are too many ways in which 0 HP fails to be an effective "disarm" point.

While it is true that at 0HP, you can disarm your foe, the rules say either the foe is dead or unconscious at this point.

Which means it isn't suitable for modeling those all-to-common and very cinematic fights in which disarming is not the end of the fight.

 

[generalhenry]

Which means it isn't suitable for modeling those all-to-common and very cinematic fights in which disarming is not the end of the fight.

...this is why I said two disarm rules are best.

A. at 0 HP, probably the most common use
B. A power balanced around the most powerful use (crippling a solo)

It's a long thread, I'll forgive you.

 

[tchristensen81]

I just have to point something out, having seen the disarm abused and abused in 3.5. It was way too easy, disarming someone in real life is VERY not easy, it requires perfect timing, the right amount of strength and leverage and the opponent to give you an opening.

Now, do you really see this as something that should be done every round?

I disarm
I pick up my weapon
I disarm
I pick up my weapon

I've seen this, let me tell you that 3.5 combat was exciting wooeeh! *sarcasm*

No it should require an experienced warrior (level 16 for example?) and be something he only rarely gets the perfect chance to do (like... once per encounter perhaps?).

I'm just saying.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It was way too easy, disarming someone in real life is VERY not easy, it requires perfect timing, the right amount of strength and leverage and the opponent to give you an opening...<snip>...
No it should require an experienced warrior (level 16 for example?) and be something he only rarely gets the perfect chance to do (like... once per encounter perhaps?).

I'm not saying 3.X was perfect, but the chance to disarm should be based upon the relative skill of the opponents rather than a hard cap like in 4Ed.

 

[renau1g]

The problem I see there is that it covers actions that you can't do with existing powers. But in this case there is an existing power. Should we really let players parrot powers using DMG42?

As much as I don't want to... I must agree with you. Looking at the level 17 power in discussion, it trades off damage (being a 2W, vs other 3W powers of that level) for the secondary effect of dropping the weapon...

That being said, I can't say I would ever want to tell my players no. Luckily, things like trip (broken due to the spiked chain), sunder, disarm, and grapple were all avoided by my RL gaming group.

Additionally, this gets into a larger discussion, for example. I posted a question asking if acrobatics could be used to tumble away from an enemy, then found the rogue utility power tumble. Should I be able to use acrobatics to emulate this ability? I don't know, but it would make sense to allow based on acrobatics description. A slippery slope indeed

 

[zlac]

My thoughts for disarm with just slightly modified grab rules:

first you need to grab the opponents weapon
Grab (or grab opponent's weapon): standard action, strength vs reflex, no weapon bonus

then opponent have a chance to escape in his round

next round, use a modified "move a grabbed target"
Take grabbed weapon: standard action, strength vs fortitude, no weapon bonus

being able to use action point (possibly with action surge) and grab weapon in one round without your opponent having an opportunity to escape makes it very nice power for the cost of an action point, no?
what do you all think?

 

[Bigwilly]

first you need to grab the opponents weapon
Grab (or grab opponent's weapon): standard action, strength vs reflex, no weapon bonus

IMHO, dexterity vs reflex would be more appropriate. Stength is fine for beating on an opponent, but disarming takes finesse!

The opponent could also be immobilized (unless they drop their weapon - how often do we see the locked weapon staredown in the movies) and needs to save on his turn to break the grab (not sure what standard procedure is for breaking a grab) or even try a counter disarm.

If unsuccessful, then attacker can attempt to disarm on his/her next turn. Strength vs Fort to wrench weapon out of opponents grasp seems fine or Dex vs Reflex for the finesse fighters (perhaps only if using a light blade).

Of course with action points an attacker could grab and disarm in one go, but how many times a day can you try that?

NOTE: Disarm is pretty broken in 3e. With improved disarm you get a +4 to the roll. With a half decent roll this means you can disarm a creature one size larger that is wielding a 2-handed weapon using only a dagger [Slight exaggeration, my PC was actually using a longsword].