D&D needs to grow up

[Crothian]

D&D needs to appeal to the widest audience possible. That's why it doesn't need to be more like an R rated movie. It is easier for me to take D&D as it is now and make it gtrim and disgusting and violent then it would be to remove those elements if they were in the game.

 

[SableWyvern]

Think heavy metal. It's all about sex, drugs and worshipping the devil.

That's as inane, and as innacurate, as similar claims about roleplaying.

 

[ppaladin123]

I see the desire for these, and all the other things you asked for, as essentially adolescent. No one is more cynical than teenagers. They distrust authority and the status quo. Products marketed at male teens feature more gore and nudity than those aimed at any other age group. Think slasher movies, low budget B-movies. The protagonists of these films are in their teens. The viewers are in their teens. Think heavy metal. It's all about sex, drugs and worshipping the devil. All the interests of your typical outsider teen - the core audience of D&D.

Trends have varied over the years. The cover of the OD&D book, Eldritch Wizardry, is probably the most metüll D&D has ever been. 2e took out the nipples, demons and assassins. 3e brought em back. 4e took away two of the three. So yeah, in terms of trappings, artwork, D&D is in a more family friendly phase right now. Gives it more mass market appeal.

In terms of rules, D&D has never been grim n' gritty. There was a supplement by that very name for 3e, available for free download. Or you could go real old school with the Arduin Grimoire critical tables.

While I agree that there is nothing inherently "adult" about including death, gore, sex, and human misery in a game, I don't think it is fair to equate the desire to play a game with these characteristics to adolescent thought patterns. Context matters. There are stories that are designed to titillate with over-the-top, cartoonish sex and violence. You can argue those are immature or adolescent in nature. On the other hand, sex, violence and human misery can be used to demonstrate the grim realities of life. War has consequences; social systems (feudalism, mercantilism, socialism, capitalism) have winners and losers; there are morally gray situations where it seems that any action taken will produce awful byproducts.

I think NYPD Blue or "Generation Kill" are good examples of shows that deal with sex and violence and human misery in an adult manner. Now personally, I play D&D to escape from all that, to feel like a hero, to feel empowered to make a difference, to experience moral clarity for a change. But, if the OP wants to insert adult drama into his game, I am not about to question his maturity level.

By the way, I think "gritty and grim," is more about narative complexity/maturity (i.e. the setting and scenarios the DM crafts) than about the rule set. D&D's default setting is not grim and gritty but there is nothing in the rules that prevents you from changing that.

 

[Vanuslux]

My games have always been pretty gritty...it's just a matter of setting your own tone, making sure the encounters are always challenging, and the penalties for failure are steep.

 

[The Little Raven]

I don't wanna grow up,
I'm a Toys-R-Us kid.
There's a million toys at Toys-R-Us
for us to play with.
From bikes to trains to video games,
it's the biggest toy store there is.
I don't wanna grow up,
because then if I did,
then I wouldn't be a Toys-R-Us kid.

Maturity is overrated when it comes to fun.

 

[Asmor]

That's as inane, and as innacurate, as similar claims about roleplaying.

Not if you're doing it right (applies to both RPGs & metal)

\m/

 

[JVisgaitis]

The game needs to drop the teen mentality it's had for years and get serious. It needs to lose the veneer of Saturday morning cartoon and get some dirt underneath it's nails. It needs to ramp up the brutality that is "killing monsters" and facing horrors from another plane. It needs to go from a game for kids to a game for adults.

This is definitely the D&D I want to play. Hell, if I didn't, I wouldn't be doing Violet Dawn. Thing is though, I have NO desire to D&D go down this road. If it does, it'll die a quick and agonizing death. I think D&D is fine where its at: appealing to the masses. There are settings and other things out there to give you a more adult-themed game.

 

[teitan]

Forgive me if this doesn't make a lot of sense. It's more of a stream of thought without a cogent or wellformed thesis.

What do I mean when I say D&D needs to grow up? I'm not talking about the rules. I'm referring to the artwork, fiction and the feel of the game.

The game needs to drop the teen mentality it's had for years and get serious. It needs to lose the veneer of Saturday morning cartoon and get some dirt underneath it's nails. It needs to ramp up the brutality that is "killing monsters" and facing horrors from another plane. It needs to go from a game for kids to a game for adults.

Life in any D&D setting should be nasty, brutish and short. The artwork, fiction and setting material should reflect that. Currently it's PG or PG-13 at best and that just doesn't cut it anymore. To steal a term used elsewhere, it needs to be "grittified" the way Battlestar Galactica has when compared to the original series for example.

Admittedly WotC has done that with the introduction of the "points of light" idea that has been much discussed and that's all well and good. I'm just not seeing it in the artwork or fiction anywhere. Sure there are nasty looking monsters and there is plenty of artwork showing "heroes" battling "evil". Yet I see no blood. I see no dead bodies. I see no poverty or misery. I see too many heroes winning the day and living far too long to fight another day.

I don't really know if I'm making much sense here so feel free to tear this post apart. I guess if I wanted to boil it down to it's essence I want D&D to have all the grit of A Game of Thrones but with all the magic and monsters that D&D allows. I know a large part of that is in the hands of the DM but it would be very helpful and evocative if the published materials also reflected something a little less adolescent and more in line with the existing audience.

Just a thought.

Here is my suggestion to you. Run your games that way or play Warhammer Fantasy.

 

[Halivar]

I don't like grim n' gritty roleplaying. I also think Michael Moorcock and George R. R. Martin are the worst things to ever happen to the literary fantasy genre, and for exactly the same reasons. JMHO and JMTC.

I like D&D the way it is.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

I don't like grim n' gritty roleplaying. I also think Michael Moorcock and George R. R. Martin are the worst things to ever happen to the literary fantasy genre, and for exactly the same reasons. JMHO and JMTC.

I like D&D the way it is.

Wow -- someone else who dislikes Moorcock and Martin! Nice to know I'm not totally alone.

Martin, IMO, is a writer who takes the 'gritty' approach so far that it becomes a ludicrous caricature of itself. And if grim and gritty D&D would be along those lines, I'll reiterate my desire to avoid it at all costs.