D&D 4E The grindyness of 4e combat: anyone tried a solo monster yet?

[baberg]

Baberg, at 3rd the curse bonus is an extra 1d6, so that's hardly a massive boost. The sneak attack is another 1d6, maybe a little more based on feat choices. It's not a huge damage differential.

Sneak Attack is actually 2d6, plus whatever the power does (my rogue likes Sly Flourish, which gets [W]+Dex+Cha).

But even then, the question becomes: Why does my party have no problem bringing down monsters with high HP but yours does? Even level monsters like the Human Guards get knocked out at a rate of 2 per round, more if my PCs are using breath weapons or daily powers.

So again, what's your party's composition?

 

[theNater]

Oh boy! Numbers!

In actuality, if you have more of A, you have less of B, C, and D, and suffer in that area. Zero sum game, folks. Currently, I got three players, and there are four roles. This advice is not the solution to the grinding issue.

Three characters, four roles. Sounds like a losing proposition, but there are tricks. Several classes can work into a 3/4 primary and 1/4 secondary without too much trouble. A party of three can be:

3/4 of a defender
1 leader
3/4 of a controller
1/2 of a striker

Just because you only get to total 3 doesn't mean you can't spread things around a bit.

I guess I'd like to know what happens during a fight with 600 hit points that makes a big dent. You don't have the barbarian critting and doing 100+ points of damage, you don't have harm tearing a big chunk out of the critter. What do you have that isn't just some 3{w} attack that amounts to maybe 20-30 points of damage?

Let's consider a fighter doing his barbarian impression. According to the DMG, we're looking at about a 14th level monster for 600 hit points. So...fighter with str of say, 20 or so, using a +3 Berserker Greataxe. A crit with 3[W] power like Reckless Strike(7) does an average of 60.5 damage. Not 100+, but noticeable.

How about a ranger? 20 dex, +3 flaming longbow, critical hit with Combined Fire(Battlefield Archer 11), quarry active. Average damage: 52.5.

Not enough? Let's try a damage focused rogue. We're talking 24 dex, +3 Vicious Rapier, Weapon Focus, Backstabber, Two-weapon Fighting, Back to the Wall, Power Attack, Blood Thirst, Light Blade Precision. Unbalancing Attack(13) will crit for 89.5 on average. I don't think the target will laugh that off.

 

[Family]

251 Damage in One Hit

Assassin's Point (Rogue 29 Daily, Standard)
7W & x2 Sneak Attack & Critical damage.

Meditation of the Blade (Rogue 12 Daily, Minor)
Dagger's size increases to d6 for the encounter.

Critical Hit Assumed:
-Daggermaster’s Action: Spend an action point to reroll an attack using a dagger.
-Sly Fortune’s Favor: 3x/day you can reroll an attack.
-Dagger Precision: Daggers critical on roll of 18+.
-(or there's always Knockout: Rogue 9, goodnight)

+42 (7d6 maximized) (d6's instead of d4's due to Meditation of the Blade)
+9 dex
+6 dagger (magic item)
+72 dagger (magic item critical 6d6) (x2 with Assassin's Point)
+24 frost dagger (magic item, daily power, free action 3d8)
+3 Weapon Focus (feat)
+5 Lasting Frost (feat)
+80 Sneak Attack (d6->d8 with backstabber) (x2 with Assassin's Point)
+10 Belt of Giant Strength (magic item, daily power, free action)
=251 damage

Can regain Assassin's point with Tickster's Control or Devine Trick
Critical Opportunity (Rogue 11, minor) for extra damage.
The total can be as high as 388 damage in one turn.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Solos take about as long to kill as 5 monsters, strangely.

That seems unlikely actually. If the party has any area attack capability at all, there will be a number of attacks which damage 2 or more monsters with the one attack. That doesn't apply to the solo, since it only takes one hit from it anyway.

I would expect 5 monsters to be abraded down more quickly than 1 monster with 5 times the hit points in almost all circumstances.

 

[Plane Sailing]

+72 dagger (magic item critical 6d6) (x2 with Assassin's Point)

At the very least you're making a mistake here - critical damage from a magical weapon isn't maximised on a critical.

e.g. a critical from a +3 longsword might do 8 (sword) +3 (magic) + 3d6 (magic critical bonus)

Cheers

 

[Lord Zardoz]

So far, my group's had a lot of trouble getting one more combat in a five-hour session. Everything other than a minion takes a metric ton of damage to bring down, and things get much worse if an elite comes into the fray.

My last encounter was three 10th-level characters pitted against a galeb duhr and a bulette. It was only a 1400 XP encounter (not quite even 10th level) but the party still wound up giving up on the bulette and leaving. They weren't too badly hurt, they were just bored with trying to deal 204 points of damage after having exhausted the galeb duhr's 111.

I would like to know what the race / class combinations were for this encounter. Party makeup can have a pretty big impact in this case.

Typical 10th level attack bonus: +10 (+5 for level, +3 for attribute, +2 for Wpn Proficiency).

The monsters at a glance:
Bulette: HP 204; AC 27; Fortitude 26, Reflex 21, Will 21; Has 2nd wind for 51 extra hp
Galeb Duhr: HP 73; AC 22; Fortitude 23, Reflex 18, Will 20
Both can burrow

At a glance, the Bulette is going to be extraordinarily difficult to damage if the players are unable to target the Will or Reflex defences. Even if your flanking the Bulette, your going to need to hit 15 or better to land a shot on him. But the strikers (Warlock using Eldritch blast and Rogue using Piercing strike) can land a hit on 11 or higher. Your Cleric (Lance of faith, Sacred Flame), and your Wizard (Scorching Burst, Cloud of Daggers) can also target Reflex. I would guess that other than doing everything possible to keep your strikers alive, the Bulette should not be unduly difficult to take down.

The Galeb Duhr, however, should not be that difficult to take down. His def scores are not too high for 10th level characters, regardless of the attack type.

I will say though, that if the DM running the fight is determined to make life difficult, he can negate many of the players attacks by opting to spend as much time under ground as possible.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[FadedC]

Typical 10th level attack bonus: +10 (+5 for level, +3 for attribute, +2 for Wpn Proficiency).

That would require a 10th level character who started off with a 14 in his prime stat and who was running around with no magic weapon.

More common would be +15-+17(+5 for level, +5 for attribute, +2-3 for weapon prof, +3 for magic, +0-1 for class bonuses).

 

[ValhallaGH]

That would require a 10th level character who started off with a 14 in his prime stat and who was running around with no magic weapon.

Not as rare as you imply. My Paladin is turning into the death machine of the party, having every single killing blow for the last three sessions. His best starting stat was 14 before race (14, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13; 24 point buy).
He's got a +1 vicious flail, for a whopping +9 to hit at 7th level. Assuming I get a +2 weapon sometime soon, I'm expecting a +12 attack bonus at level 10 and a +13 at level 11 when I get my strength up to an 18 (finally).

A +12 or +13 to hit at level 10 won't be uncommon, and may be more common than your +15. And a +10 is a solid "lowest value" number, covering the spread of magic and ability scores that can be expected to show up in a variety of campaigns and players.

 

[FadedC]

Not as rare as you imply. My Paladin is turning into the death machine of the party, having every single killing blow for the last three sessions. His best starting stat was 14 before race (14, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13; 24 point buy).
He's got a +1 vicious flail, for a whopping +9 to hit at 7th level. Assuming I get a +2 weapon sometime soon, I'm expecting a +12 attack bonus at level 10 and a +13 at level 11 when I get my strength up to an 18 (finally).

A +12 or +13 to hit at level 10 won't be uncommon, and may be more common than your +15. And a +10 is a solid "lowest value" number, covering the spread of magic and ability scores that can be expected to show up in a variety of campaigns and players.

Well a +10 would be almost unheard of, there's no way somebody at lvl 10 should not have a magic weapon. It's certainly not the "average" value. +12 would be possible for a highly unoptimized character like the one you describe, but should be pretty rare. Certainly it's the first character I've heard with a 14 in a primary stat.

This does illustrate the possible differences in party power however. If all your players have built their character like the paladin described above, your fights will last quite a bit longer. The DM may want to adjust his monters accordingly.

 

[Leatherhead]

That seems unlikely actually. If the party has any area attack capability at all, there will be a number of attacks which damage 2 or more monsters with the one attack. That doesn't apply to the solo, since it only takes one hit from it anyway.

I would expect 5 monsters to be abraded down more quickly than 1 monster with 5 times the hit points in almost all circumstances.

Focus fire with all the curses, hunters quarries, and sneak attacks on the same target more than makes up for that. Especially if one of the normal monsters is a leader with the ability to heal multiple monsters. Not to mention that solos tend to draw out more daily powers and action point use than a bunch of normal monsters, but that is more of a play style thing anyway.