D&D 3E/3.5 4E reminded me how much I like 3E

[Imp]

Alternatively, have the monster use the Slippery Mind mechanic (which reintroduces the two rolls, but keeps the numbers from having to be retabulated).

 

[Hussar]

But these aren't 'bugs' - they're features of the game that you don't like. I think they're fine and make the game more enjoyable.

I guess it is opinion, but, I prefer games that don't "feature" elements that make another character redundant. Knock is a perfect example. Mage hand is a zero level spell and makes trap detection much, much faster and easier. Heck, Unseen Servant makes trap detection and removal pretty much a given.

Wand of Unseen Servant and you've just removed the need for a trap finder.

Wand of Knock.

Arcane Eye.

There, no more need of the rogue.

 

[Mort]

Well I'll say I think they lamified a lot of the spells for the same reason 4 e made changes...simplification. Spells like fireball were much cooler when they filled a volume none of this concrete area of effect crap. They unmagiked my magic.

As for me balance wise the problem really wasn't the spells but charged items. A wand of knock was lame. Now in my games it was not an issue since no one played item creators, and the only time I saw a wand of knock was when i was playing and I made a rogue/wizard character with the rogue/wizard prestige class that came out early on in 3e.

A wizard casting knock once a day is not a big deal, a wizard popping every door is.

This is an astute post. though I've noticed the problem is particularly bad with scrolls. Utility scrolls (comp lang., knock, invisibility, detect x etc.) are not just cheap but dirt cheap relative to their usefulness. This is why a wizard with any time at all can out rogue a rogue in 3e and 3.5.

It is also why arguments that say a wizard has to pick between combat effectiveness and utility fail - a savy wizard player can easily do both.

This is also why I've seen wizards usually cause more problems than sorcerers.

 

[AllisterH]

It is also why arguments that say a wizard has to pick between combat effectiveness and utility fail - a savy wizard player can easily do both.

This is also why I've seen wizards usually cause more problems than sorcerers.

I think a lot of it is also "expertise" I guess you would call it with the system.

For example, I know many players that don't touch the item creation feats since they believe they will lag behind the party forever and it would just get worse.

Of course, this didn't take into account the fact that actually being a level behind made you actually gain xp faster thus actually catching up (and at certain times, even leapfrgging) to the others.

 

[Ahglock]

I think a lot of it is also "expertise" I guess you would call it with the system.

For example, I know many players that don't touch the item creation feats since they believe they will lag behind the party forever and it would just get worse.

Of course, this didn't take into account the fact that actually being a level behind made you actually gain xp faster thus actually catching up (and at certain times, even leapfrgging) to the others.

Well that part was a "improvement" in 3.5 In 3e I believe you just fell behind. (though my memory can be totally off on this) So in 3e there was a XP hit and sometimes people were a level behind, but considering the power and utility gained from these feats it was a negligible hit IMO.

Edit to add: I just thought spell research and item creation was just flat out cooler in 2e. I had fun spending the time and money to round out my research library so I could research spells and item creation recipes. IIRC the standard for a full library was 80,000GP. It just seemed more wizard like to me.

 

[pemerton]

I do not disagree with that point, I just think that the bigger flaw is the item creation feats especially the charged items ones.

Fair enough. Given the general trend in the move from AD&D to 3E, of increasing play control and reducing GM control over such crucial aspects of character build as spell access and magic items, I can't easily envisage a version of 3E that downplays item creation.

That's why I agree with AllisterH that it would be better to focus on the spells themselves, accepting that the PCs will have reliable access to them if they want them.

 

[Fenes]

I disagree that the spells moving to 3E caused an imbalance. Many spells were much more powerful in 2E.

Hold person was an area-effect, for example.

Power words had an easier time since hps were lower.

Most damage spells were more effective since hps in general were lower.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I disagree that the spells moving to 3E caused an imbalance. Many spells were much more powerful in 2E.

Hold person was an area-effect, for example.

Power words had an easier time since hps were lower.

Most damage spells were more effective since hps in general were lower.

That's probably true, but the powers that seemed to be most in question are the ones that "steal" other classes spot light (Unseen Servant as cheap trap detector, Knock to remove open lock) - or that are simply not nerfed in these ways. The Save or Die spells for example. (Regarding Hold Person: where there coup-de-grace mechanics in 2e against victims of hold person? If not, Hold Person/Monster still seems more powerful...)

 

[Keith Robinson]

I guess it is opinion, but, I prefer games that don't "feature" elements that make another character redundant. Knock is a perfect example. Mage hand is a zero level spell and makes trap detection much, much faster and easier. Heck, Unseen Servant makes trap detection and removal pretty much a given.

Wand of Unseen Servant and you've just removed the need for a trap finder.

Wand of Knock.

Arcane Eye.

There, no more need of the rogue.

I can certainly understand your point of view - and can understand that some people might not like that - but its not really something that has had any bearing on our game in a negative way. Maybe one day that will turn out not to be the case, but certainly it's not something I've encountered.

 

[Imp]

I can't easily envisage a version of 3E that downplays item creation.

As in "not terribly uncommon house rules", the likes of which have been argued about around here (the ever-present low magic wars) for the past several years?