Pathfinder 1E Lisa Stevens, CEO of Paizo, commenting about ENWorld

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think a look at any of the various "edition preference" polls will reveal to you the actual bias of the boards fairly accurately. Most current active ENWorld posters favor 4e. The boards aren't as blatantly pro-4e as the RPGnet d20 forums, but I think claims that the slant is "all in your head" doesn't match up with the self professed preferences of the members.

But is it anyones fault? Or more specifically, it it Morrus fault?

Of course, Lisa wasn't really speaking about how it is today, but how sales have affected EN World after the 4E announcement.

If Morrus wouldn't have been willing to have news and discussions on 4E here, maybe it is true that EN World Publishing had sold more 3E PDFs - but as it is, everyone visiting EN World would be fully aware of the 4E announcement and could get more information.

 

[Psion]

But is it anyones fault? Or more specifically, it it Morrus fault?

Not sure what you are trying to hang on me here.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not sure what you are trying to hang on me here.

I am not sure I am hanging anything on you here.

It's really a question. Could Morrus have done anything to change that? Should he have done so? What is it he could have done?

Or is it just the way the community chose to develop/evolve/change?

I really think it is the latter. In some ways, the community didn't change at all - the community was always talking about the newest products, be it from WotC, Malhavoc, Paizo, Mongoose, Green Ronin and so on. In others ways it changed - because it always talked about 3E and the OGL/d20 stuff.

Maybe it was a surprise for some that the community turned out to be more interested in the "current news" (and ever-greens like "how to be a good/bad DM/player" and so on) than a specific edition or ruleset.

 

[Morrus]

I think a look at any of the various "edition preference" polls will reveal to you the actual bias of the boards fairly accurately. Most current active ENWorld posters favor 4e. The boards aren't as blatantly pro-4e as the RPGnet d20 forums, but I think claims that the slant is "all in your head" doesn't match up with the self professed preferences of the members.

I imagine that's true to an extent, but I also think it depends on where you hold your poll. Different people are - for better or worse - hanging out in different areas of the site depending on their preferences. Some of that's intentional, some of it just happened despite attempts otherwise. General, for sure, has turned out to be more 4E-centric than I'd ideally like, but the 3.5 boards, the Pathfinder etc., forum and so forth are all hangouts of people who play things other than 4E.

The difficulty is finding that fine line between segregation and accepting that the community will talk about what it wants to talk about, not what I want it to talk about.

 

[Wicht]

I think it is rather important to keep in mind the reason for Lisa's original post - something that should be more front and center. After the 4e announcement (and before the Pathfinder RPG announcement IIRC) 3e sales at Paizo went up, not down. Lisa was just speculating on the reason for the difference between their sales and ENworld's sales.

Since Paizo was not really, as a company, 'anti-4e' before the PFRPG announcement (they were still polling their readers to try and determine a direction) there has to be some reason for the increase. For the record, I don't see them as anti-4e at the moment so much as ambivalent-4e.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

People who like 3e and dislike 4e think ENWorld is anti-3e.

People who like 4e and dislike 3e think ENWorld is anti-4e.

I'd say things are fine, and any supposed "bias" is completely in the observer's head.

-O

This

Well, I would say that compared to the Paizo boards, EN World is a whole lot more 4e friendly.

Whether or not it's "pitched firmly in the 4e camp" is very much up for debate.

And this...

I stopped going to paizo´s boards because of all of the 4e bashing, subtle or not, sometimes even coming from its own staff, like the comment that sparked this thread.

One of the first rules of sales is that you do not want to base your sales pitch on bashing your competitor, because that way you come across as mean-spirited and petty.
Instead, you base your sales pitch on the benefits of your product, and let the customer make the comparison in his mind.

 

[Starbuck_II]

This
And this...

I stopped going to paizo´s boards because of all of the 4e bashing, subtle or not, sometimes even coming from its own staff, like the comment that sparked this thread.

One of the first rules of sales is that you do not want to base your sales pitch on bashing your competitor, because that way you come across as mean-spirited and petty.
Instead, you base your sales pitch on the benefits of your product, and let the customer make the comparison in his mind.

In theory, what you say is true. But they say the same about elections.
How mud slinging is bad, but yet the one who mid slings usually wins the Elections (at least here in America sadly).

 

[Barastrondo]

I think a look at any of the various "edition preference" polls will reveal to you the actual bias of the boards fairly accurately. Most current active ENWorld posters favor 4e. The boards aren't as blatantly pro-4e as the RPGnet d20 forums, but I think claims that the slant is "all in your head" doesn't match up with the self professed preferences of the members.

RPGnet has a strong undercurrent of "the new hotness" — it's a place with lots of people who are interested in the newest games of any ol' sort. While there's aficionados of all kinds of old and out-of-print games there, you can usually expect the newer games to attract more attention. I still see front-page discussion of 1/2/3/3.5 products on their D&D/d20 forum, but 4e outnumbers them for probably the same reason — it's new, it's interesting, and people want to see what they can do with it. That said, I don't know if all the threads about 4e indicate the kind of loyalty to a game that kicks off flamewars; there's a different social context in a place where it's not as assumed that the average poster plays some variant of D&D as their usual game.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I don't find this site pro any particular edition. It seems balanced and works to serve the needs of D&D gamers and fantasy fans.

Personally, I stopped buying 3E materials because I wasn't sure if I would be upgrading. I have upgraded to every edition of D&D until now. I played 3E for a few months and loved it. I hopped on board with it immediately and never looked back. So I didn't want to buy more books just in case I felt the same way about 4E. I think most people felt like me. Why buy something you might not be using in a few months?

Once the 4E launch date was close, I wasn't going to buy any 3E materials I didn't know if I'd be using again. I don't have that kind of throwaway income or time to purchase books I may not be using and casually read them.

Now that I am firmly away from 4E and don't plan to buy any 4E products, I would be more inclined to look for 3E products that are still produced. I'm hoping that publishers were aware of this. I would've figured that until the new edition launched and people settled into their respective camps, all sales would have halted or slowed considerably as people waited to see what the new edition was like.

It wasn't like this was a minor change. This was a major overhaul of D&D that changed the entire system to such a degree that it is unrecognizable save for the transference of names.

I'm waiting to see how strong the "stay with 3E" market is once Pathfinder launches in final form. Even Pathfinder is ultimately someone else's vision of D&D just like 4E and 3E. I'll just have to see if their vision is closer in line with what I like in a fantasy game. Otherwise, I'll be reduced to old books and house rules. I can work with that too until the company that publishes D&D and I can be on the same page again (if that ever happens). 3rd edition may have been the last product I purchase from the company that produces D&D. I just hope someone steps in to fill the void for we D&D players that don't want to move on with the new edition of D&D.

I know this is the first time I have ever seen someone try to publish an edition of D&D under a different name. It is all very strange to me as a consumer. I hope Paizo succeeds so I can still look forward to a fantasy game with rules I like and support for monsters and adventures that D&D has had all these years. Though it will be very odd not to be buying books that say Dungeons and Dragons on it. Very strange indeed.

And I hope ENWorld and Morrus continue to support both camps. Though if Pathfinder does become a strong player in the market, I wouldn't be surprised if corporate pressure made him choose a side. I'm pretty certain Wizards will not like a competitor based on their own product taking a chunk of their market, especially if that chunk is sizeable.

I know with absolute certainty I didn't freak out like this when 3E launched. I grumbled a bit when the new edition hit. But I never felt violently opposed to 3E like I do to 4E. I continue to wonder how many people feel the same way I do. That will only be determined when the revamped 3E launches and we can see what it looks like in final form.

 

[DM_Jeff]

I got a 'vibe' that Lisa talks about right here on EN World, and it almost drove me away. I don't think she's setting something up in marketing as much as reminding us that during the time EN's sales were shrinking after the 4e announcement, by NOT throwing itself toward 4e, Paizo's sales began skyrocketing.

-DM Jeff