Cheating cheaters

[Obryn]

Overall, I have a great group of folks. I have one, though, who's cheated on and off... It's been noticeable enough to me and the other players that we've talked about it before and after the game a few times.

I've called her on it - or tried to - a few times, and did last night, too. When a 2 turns into a 20 and a 7 turns into a 17 on two die rolls in a row, it's just gotten to be too much. Especially when the other players are all looking around incredulously at one another, like "I did not just see that."

Here's the problem, though. She generally sits way across the table from me, and I don't have really good proof. I don't think...

"17! Yay!"
"You sure? Looked like a 7 from here."
"No, my dice are weird. It was a 17."
"Ummm... okay...."

...serves to elevate the level of the game.

I've tried the gentle "No, it didn't look like it." I've tried the "Cheating at D&D is pathetic and sad" speech, made to the table as a whole.

Obviously, I could kick her out. That's not my top option, especially because both she and her best friend play, and I'd rather not lose two players to get rid of one. Also, I think this is a manageable problem rather than an unmanageable one.


So, since it's bothering my players as much or more than it is me, I asked them to help me out. Unless she sits next to me, I can't watch her die rolls. Simply, I asked the few I talked with last night to ... well, cheer her on when she's rolling, and loudly announce the results. Sneaky, I know. But it gets more pairs of eyes on her dice. "Come on, roll high! Awwww, a two."

They seem game and genuinely interested in helping out.

I'll see how this works - but I'm looking for input from other DMs and players. How have you handled cheaters in the past, if they were otherwise decent players and okay human beings?

-O

 

[catsclaw227]

I would suggest that you ask the players (all of them, so as to not single her out) to roll in a shoe box near the middle of the table, and then everyone can see the results.

 

[Storminator]

Overall, I have a great group of folks. I have one, though, who's cheated on and off... It's been noticeable enough to me and the other players that we've talked about it before and after the game a few times.

-O

Next time she actually rolls a 20, wait until she picks up her dice and say "I didn't see that, please roll again where I can see the dice..."

PS

 

[Crothian]

Ya, cheating is bad and all that but does it really impact the game or make it less fun for the other people? It might not be worth it to worry about it.

 

[Fifth Element]

I've tried the "Cheating at D&D is pathetic and sad" speech, made to the table as a whole.

That probably didn't work because it's not true?

My attitude as both player and DM is if that's how someone enjoys playing D&D, who am I to say it's wrong (or pathetic, or sad)? I don't "cheat" as a player, and I don't think any of my players do either, but what's the big deal?

I see from your post that it bothers the other players, not just you, so it's obviously something that needs to be dealt with. Have you tried asking the other players why it bothers them so much? All D&D players have their quirks. Why can't this be hers?

 

[Halivar]

I had a cheater in my group. Rolled secretly, rerolled when he thought no one was looking, used splat books no else had and got creative with the rules. It got so bad that twice I even made an ultimatum to the DM: me or him. He talked me down, and I regretted it within a week.

The edition wars have since split my group, and I no longer game with this individual. Never thought anything good could come from edition wars, but it has...

 

[Obryn]

Ya, cheating is bad and all that but does it really impact the game or make it less fun for the other people? It might not be worth it to worry about it.

That probably didn't work because it's not true?

My attitude as both player and DM is if that's how someone enjoys playing D&D, who am I to say it's wrong (or pathetic, or sad)? I don't "cheat" as a player, and I don't think any of my players do either, but what's the big deal?

I see from your post that it bothers the other players, not just you, so it's obviously something that needs to be dealt with. Have you tried asking the other players why it bothers them so much? All D&D players have their quirks. Why can't this be hers?

Talking to both of you at the same time...

For one thing, the dishonesty bothers me. She knows she's doing something sneaky - it's not like she's saying "I rolled a 7, but I'd like to re-roll because I don't feel fulfilled in my life if I miss this Magic Missile."

We have the numbers and pencils and dice and action points for a reason, and ignoring all the die rolls flies in the face of that. Where's the risk if you always pull out that 'lucky' shot exactly when it's most convenient? It's another form of spotlight-hogging.

It's pathetic and sad to me because I don't see the point in cheating in what is otherwise a theoretically cooperative endeavor. So what if you miss with that at-will spell? Life goes on. Sometimes folks fail at what they do, and everyone deserves a chance to be a hero sometimes. If our final goal is having fun as a group, what's wrong with doing it honestly? My goal with board games is to have fun as a group, too, but I don't smile and look the other way when folks cheat there, either.

I can live with it, generally, and I have since she started gaming with us almost a year ago. It definitely bothers several of my players, though, and it's gotten worse for some reason. Her fun doesn't outweigh the rest of the table's fun.

-O

 

[jmucchiello]

I always give the same advice about cheating featured by fifth element...

For one thing, the dishonesty bothers me. She knows she's doing something sneaky - it's not like she's saying "I rolled a 7, but I'd like to re-roll because I don't feel fulfilled in my life if I miss this Magic Missile."

And calling her out on it is designed to increase whose fun? Making her feel like crap is designed to make her feel bad. Who goes to D&D sessions to be ridiculed and made to feel bad. Deep down, I'm sure she already loathes cheating. So calling her out on it cannot help. The question is, why does she cheat? What does she hope to accomplish by cheating?

IME, the main reason someone cheats at an activity like D&D is there is something so dire outside the game which they can't control and cheating at D&D provides them with a level of control they seek IRL. Now, it's not your job to psychoanalyze your friends. But her motivation for cheating is unlikely to be "to annoy the other players when the see I'm cheating." Thus, she isn't doing it TO you. She's doing it FOR herself.

We have the numbers and pencils and dice and action points for a reason, and ignoring all the die rolls flies in the face of that. Where's the risk if you always pull out that 'lucky' shot exactly when it's most convenient? It's another form of spotlight-hogging.

That's your definition of fun. Again, spotlight hogs are also folks who have some pressing need to be better than they are. This is probably rooted in deep psychological issues or recent stress out of their control.

It's pathetic and sad to me because I don't see the point in cheating in what is otherwise a theoretically cooperative endeavor. So what if you miss with that at-will spell? Life goes on.

In some people's psyches failure at anything feeds their darkness. And cheating at die rolls maybe their only way to fight against that darkness.

I can live with it, generally, and I have since she started gaming with us almost a year ago. It definitely bothers several of my players, though, and it's gotten worse for some reason. Her fun doesn't outweigh the rest of the table's fun.

That is the real crux of the matter. You need to determine when her fun outweighs everyone else's. But until you reach that point, you need to ask yourself "does her cheating really affect you?"

Once you feel the cheating is bothering you, well, you're not a psychiatrist so it isn't your job to cure her. It's your job to have fun. Part ways as amicably as you can with as little reference to the cheating as possible.

Good Luck.

 

[catsclaw227]

That is the real crux of the matter. You need to determine when her fun outweighs everyone else's. But until you reach that point, you need to ask yourself "does her cheating really affect you?"

Once you feel the cheating is bothering you, well, you're not a psychiatrist so it isn't your job to cure her. It's your job to have fun. Part ways as amicably as you can with as little reference to the cheating as possible.

I imagine that the reason that the OP has put this out to the gang at EnWorld is because it already DOES bother him/her and the group.

I understand that asking WHY it bothers someone is valid, but if it already is a problem and the OP is seeking a resolution and not really an analysis of why it bugs the group, then the why is not as important as finding a reasonable way to deal with it and not alienate the player(s).

 

[Fifth Element]

For one thing, the dishonesty bothers me. She knows she's doing something sneaky

Or perhaps, she knows she has to do it surreptitiously because she knows you and the other players don't approve of her preferred playstyle.

So her choice is to either have her preferred playstyle, but do it secretly, or to not have her preferred playstyle at all. At which point she might not want to play.

Her fun doesn't outweigh the rest of the table's fun.

But that's rather my point. Why does it hurt the other players' fun? You say her fun is not more important, which is true - just make sure you don't consider it less important either.

By some interpretation, that's what you're doing. "Here is the right way to play D&D, and if that's not how you play, we have a problem with that."