Marked targets knowing about Combat Challenge

[Hypersmurf]

I don't think you can divide up marking, and the effects of marking in a particular instance, and treat them like separate things.

But "The Fighter can hit me if I shift" isn't an effect of the mark. It's an ability the Fighter has that relates to a marked opponent.

In the same way that someone with the Wintertouched feat gains combat advantage against a creature with cold vulnerability... that's an ability they have, not an effect of a power that bestows cold vulnerability.

Next to the orcs is a many tentacled beast who's tentacles reach and writhe thirty feet out from his body. Is there any way, under the rules as written, to know that this monster has threatening reach?

Perhaps not. So be cautious once you get to within those thirty feet!

If the answer is no, what does that tell us about this debate?

I'm not sure... what do you think it tells us?

If I inflict 11 points of ongoing radiant damage on your character by using a paragon path ability that isn't a power, does your character know about it during my turn? Does he not figure it out until his turn starts and he takes damage?

Doesn't seem unreasonable. As a DM, I'd be inclined to let the character know that the Radiant Servant pointed at him, and he's started glowing with an unpleasant brightness...

... and then at the start of his turn, the light flares and he takes his 11 damage.

Does any page exist in the entirety of the game that explicitly states that a character has any idea of how wounded he is, other than "bloodied" and "dead?"

I haven't found a page in the entirety of the game that explicitly states "You know how wounded you are". On the other hand, the example on p294 uses hit point totals, not just the labels, in every instance where people are making decisions about using healing abilities.

-Hyp.

 

[Cadfan]

But "The Fighter can hit me if I shift" isn't an effect of the mark. It's an ability the Fighter has that relates to a marked opponent.

And what I'm saying is that "The Fighter can hit me if I shift" IS part of the mark. It can't be a separate thing, because in game, there's no dividing line.

I'm not sure... what do you think it tells us?

It tells us that a game which doesn't actually state that a character (or monster) knows when he's taking damage (it doesn't, you know, by rules as written the ) can't be read this carefully on this subject?

 

[Hypersmurf]

And what I'm saying is that "The Fighter can hit me if I shift" IS part of the mark. It can't be a separate thing, because in game, there's no dividing line.

But there is a dividing line. It's that paragraph break that says "In addition".

Combat Challenge does one thing to the target - it gives him a -2 on attack rolls. In addition, it grants the fighter an ability. That ability-granting isn't something being done to the target.

Contrast this with Divine Challenge, which does two things to the target - gives him a -2 on attack rolls, and damages him for attacking someone else.

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Is Orcus obliged to attack a rogue who smacked it with dance of death the previous turn with his death touch, just to prove that the DM is not metagaming?

If he's allowed to know what will happen (and thus would never, ever make the attack), why does the power give redirected attacks a bonus if you're an artful dodger?

 

[Stalker0]

And what I'm saying is that "The Fighter can hit me if I shift" IS part of the mark. It can't be a separate thing, because in game, there's no dividing line.

It is a seperate thing. Take for example the student of the sword feat. Its the fighter multiclass feat that lets you mark a target. But you don't get to hit the creature if it shifts or attacks your ally, you just get the mark.

 

[James McMurray]

We have two characters with polearms, standing side-by-side. One of them has the Polearm Gamble feat. An orc intends to move up to them and smack them with a sword.

The one with the feat will be able to take an OA when the orc closes. The one without the feat will not.

Let's say the one without the feat is stronger, higher level, and more confident. The one with the feat is lower level and a bit nervous.

Is there a way for the orc to know that approaching the nervous one involves more immediate danger than approaching the tough, confident one?

-Hyp.

Answer my question and I'll answer yours. One of us has to stop playing Socrates and I choose you.

 

[brehobit]

I think the answer is "the rules are unclear as written". I personally agree with Hypersmurf, but the other side is also reasonable. Until WotC clarifies this formally, I think we have to agree to disagree.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Answer my question and I'll answer yours. One of us has to stop playing Socrates and I choose you.

Well, I disagree with your basic premise - "Monsters are not supposed to have gotcha abilities".

Consider a Choker's Body Shield immediate interrupt, or a Colossus' Defensive Strike immediate reaction, or a Cyclops' Effect Transfer immediate interrupt, or a Goristro's Goristro Stomp immediate reaction, or...

Those are the sorts of things I'd consider to be "gotcha" abilities, and monsters have them.

So you say "Monsters are not supposed to have gotcha abilities; why should PCs?" I say "Monsters have gotcha abilities - why shouldn't PCs?"

-Hyp.

 

[Cadfan]

It is a seperate thing. Take for example the student of the sword feat. Its the fighter multiclass feat that lets you mark a target. But you don't get to hit the creature if it shifts or attacks your ally, you just get the mark.

I know its mechanically a separate thing, and you can have marks with all kinds of attendant secondary effects, or with none at all.

That's not the issue.

The issue is that there's no single such thing as a "mark" in the game world. It is a descriptive term used to define a wide variety of in-game effects. Which means its not necessarily sound logic to try to divide out the mark from all the other things that go along with the mark when its used by a particular class in a particular manner.

But there is a dividing line. It's that paragraph break that says "In addition".

Look, if your argument is strictly by-the-book rules interpretation, you're going to have to deal with the fact that absolutely nothing in the book actually states that monsters even know when they take damage, if they don't take it due to a power. Apparently Shadow Assassin Riposte does secret, indetectable phantom damage?

Or take an easier case, Astral Judgment- apparently enemies affected by this have no idea that they're suffering -2 to all defenses. After all, the penalty is imposed by a paragon path ability, not by a power.

Now, if you instead want to try to argue in-game logic about the nature of a fighter's marking powers, great. But in that case answering my argument by referencing a paragraph break is completely beside the point.

 

[Victim]

Well, I disagree with your basic premise - "Monsters are not supposed to have gotcha abilities".

Consider a Choker's Body Shield immediate interrupt, or a Colossus' Defensive Strike immediate reaction, or a Cyclops' Effect Transfer immediate interrupt, or a Goristro's Goristro Stomp immediate reaction, or...

Those are the sorts of things I'd consider to be "gotcha" abilities, and monsters have them.

So you say "Monsters are not supposed to have gotcha abilities; why should PCs?" I say "Monsters have gotcha abilities - why shouldn't PCs?"

-Hyp.

On the other hand, monsters don't really have gotcha abilities since PCs will usually be able to make knowledge checks to learn about their powers.