Marked targets knowing about Combat Challenge

[eamon]

On the other hand, monsters don't really have gotcha abilities since PCs will usually be able to make knowledge checks to learn about their powers.

They'll regularly fail them though (and might not even have the skill), and the knowledge the monster checks reveal won't cover every detail.

The idea that monsters should not have gotcha abilities is a design philosophy, which doesn't directly translate to a particular monster. Within the context of that design discussion, the type of gotcha most important to avoid are those you can't prevent - something like 3e spell resistance or miss chances, and not things that represent the unknown. A surprise can be fun, a slog through an unavoidable gotcha is better represented by simply raising hitpoints or defenses.

So surprises should happen - but not all the time. How often in your combats does it occur that a player fails to realize some in-game fact and makes a ridiculous choice? This is a far bigger problem than most metagame knowledge about which powers a creature might have, since such knowledge usually only has a subtle effect, and secondly since it's quite reasonable (in many cases) for such knowledge to be had in-game.

I've had a DM once that described a room as having a spider in the corner and calling for initiative, after which someone asks "is it big? Like, can I step on it?" The reply was "Sure, you could stand on it." In the player's mind, the spider was small, and in the DM's it was gargantuan. Hilarity ensued. Unless there's some real reason to hide powers or features, I'd generally assume that the outline of many threats is visible or well-known, and to avoid not describing it.

Let me put it this way: if the opposing party knows less than half the stat-block, then that's probably too limited a description or some unbelievably surprising combatant.

 

[Ginnel]

Cadfan I think you're confused by the Paladins Divine challenge class feature power. This is a specific power that marks a target and inflicts a condition on the target which creates the situation where the target might get damaged.

The fighter's mark ability doesn't work like this it isn't a power used on the target before the effect goes off, the only time this "I hit you if you shift or attack an ally" power even comes into light in the game is when a target marked by that fighter does either of those two things, the power doesn't care if its been marked by the fighters multiclassed paladin power or divine challenge he still gets to do this.

The ability to mark an enemy on a miss or a hit as long as the fighter attacks a target is an ability of combat challenge as well, but there is no power used on the target that lets them know he'll get hit if he shifts or hits one of the fighters allies this is an ability of the fighter to do this to marked enemies just like a PC won't automatically know that goblins can shift away when missed when they meet them for the first time or that an enemy wizard has these spells available.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now, if you instead want to try to argue in-game logic about the nature of a fighter's marking powers, great. But in that case answering my argument by referencing a paragraph break is completely beside the point.

I'm saying there's a difference between "X has been done to you", and "He might do X to you".

A PC doesn't automatically know that moving adjacent to a Colossus will trigger an immediate reaction that sees him hit twice and flung across the room. That's an ability the Colossus possesses, not something that has been done to the PC.

Similarly, a Fighter's ability to hit a marked opponent who shifts is an ability the Fighter possesses, not something that has been done to the opponent. Why should the opponent know the Fighter has that ability, any more than the PC should know about the ability of the Colossus?

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

Well, I disagree with your basic premise - "Monsters are not supposed to have gotcha abilities".

The DMG disagrees with you. So, since we're in a rules discussion, and should probably follow the rules and guidelines presented in the game, do you have an answer?

 

[Runestar]

The DMG disagrees with you. So, since we're in a rules discussion, and should probably follow the rules and guidelines presented in the game, do you have an answer?

Which part?

 

[James McMurray]

The part labelled "gotcha abilities."

 

[Cadfan]

I'm saying there's a difference between "X has been done to you", and "He might do X to you".

A PC doesn't automatically know that moving adjacent to a Colossus will trigger an immediate reaction that sees him hit twice and flung across the room. That's an ability the Colossus possesses, not something that has been done to the PC.

Similarly, a Fighter's ability to hit a marked opponent who shifts is an ability the Fighter possesses, not something that has been done to the opponent. Why should the opponent know the Fighter has that ability, any more than the PC should know about the ability of the Colossus?

-Hyp.

Which sort of answer do you want?

If you want an answer by the rules, nothing explicitly says he should know. Nothing explicitly says he should know when he's being poisoned to death, either, if that poisoning occurs outside the context of a power or "condition," whatever the heck that is. So from a rules perspective, I'd argue that its better to adhere to the generally applicable rule (monsters know the effect of things done to them, attacking the monster imposed a restriction on the monster, and they know about it), rather than to turn a class ability into an ultra-rare "gotcha" ability sans clear indication that its the right thing to do. And I don't think the fact that it isn't in a power block is clear indication of this, anymore than I think that about other penalties and disadvantages imposed by non-power abilities like many of those possessed by Paladin paragon paths. I also think that the Fighter's marking abilities and their attendant consequences, since they trigger based on the Fighter's use of an attack power and augment that attack power, fit under the rubric of attack powers and monster knowledge much better than they fit under the rubric of a generally applicable triggered ability like that of your Colossus.

If you want an answer from within the game-world, its this: I do not think you can separate "marked" from "marked and going to be attacked if the following occurs."

Suppose you have two characters, twins, identically outfitted with gear. One is a Fighter. The other is a NPC soldier who can mark his foes when he attacks them.

Each is fighting one orc. Each attacks their orc, and therefore both mark their orc.

Now there's two ways to envision this. The first is that both characters have done exactly the same thing to the orc. Their attack and their combat prowess are indistinguishable, up until the moment that the orcs each shift one space. At that moment, the fighter lashes out and attacks the orc. The NPC soldier does not.

Or, you could envision that the fighter is attacking and harrying his foe in a flat out different way than the npc soldier, or at least in the same way but with noticeably more confidence.

I think the latter makes more sense.

 

[Chen_93]

So when a fighter marks an opponent with a different power (say one of the later encounter powers that mark a large number of creatures) those creatures KNOW the fighter has the combat challenge power and can attack them if they attack someone else or shift? By the "logical" interpretation the fighter is behaving in the same way by carefully gauging the opponents he marked (since he is able to use combat challenge to hit them).

Yet here, there is ABSOLUTELY no way by any reading of p.57 that should let the monsters know this. He did not use the marking ability of the combat challenge to mark those creatures. He is simply using the ability combat challenge grants him to attack a marked foe who attacks someone other than him or shifts.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The DMG disagrees with you. So, since we're in a rules discussion, and should probably follow the rules and guidelines presented in the game, do you have an answer?

This is the "Gotcha abilities" section appearing just below "You don't have to reveal all aspects of a situation in one go", right?

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

Yep