Alchemy...Too Expensive?

[Stalker0]

Let me start with a caveat that this is really the only part of the Adventurer's Vault that I have some issues with, the rest of the book looks awesome!

I took a look at the whetstones and elixers, and absolutely love that section. Good consumables that last the whole encounter, looks great!

Then I look at alchemy, and I can't help but feel a little underwhelmed. While some of the alchemy looks good and lasts a while, much of it, like alchemist fire just seems too expensive for a single use. It doesn't do more damage than I would normally do, it doesn't have a higher attack bonus than I would normally have. It just has a different effect and costs a fair amount of money.

Maybe at 6th level I have so much money I don't care, but tossing away 75 gp a pop on this stuff seems a bit out there. Now I wouldn't mind it if the effect was particularly powerful, or I got a really nice attack bonus with it, but I don't. It lets a fighter do a mini wizard at will or a close approximation, but...again, it just seems like too much money.

Also, let me add in the point that I think the scaling is granular enough. For example, a +9 vs reflex at 6th level is an attack roll that most character's at that level will make. But what about at 8th...or even 10th? By then I likely have a +2 to +3 more bonus by then. Suddenly a +9 attack roll seems even weaker
I'll throw it out to the gallery for their opinions. I can see my character loving the whetstones, but becoming an alchemist just seems to get you a bunch of fancy attacks and a crapload of debt.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I agree. I was considering getting the Alchemist feat, but then I realised I'd still have to pay just as much to make this stuff as it would to just buy it at the store. The extremely rare situation where I'd want to make this stuff out in the wilderness just doesn't justify the cost of a feat. Now, give me a 25% or more discount on the stuff I make, and I'd consider picking it up.

And most of the items, especially at high levels, just aren't worth the cost, IMO. 45,000 gp for 4d6 alchemist's fire? Like hell! And it really ticks me off how you don't even use your own attack bonus, which is one of the ways they force you to buy the more expensive versions. Well, I'm sorry, I can never justify paying 45,000 gp for an item that is less effective than my at-will scorching burst!

 

[MrBeens]

I agree. I was considering getting the Alchemist feat, but then I realised I'd still have to pay just as much to make this stuff as it would to just buy it at the store. The extremely rare situation where I'd want to make this stuff out in the wilderness just doesn't justify the cost of a feat. Now, give me a 25% or more discount on the stuff I make, and I'd consider picking it up.

And most of the items, especially at high levels, just aren't worth the cost, IMO. 45,000 gp for 4d6 alchemist's fire? Like hell! And it really ticks me off how you don't even use your own attack bonus, which is one of the ways they force you to buy the more expensive versions. Well, I'm sorry, I can never justify paying 45,000 gp for an item that is less effective than my at-will scorching burst!

They are meant for people without scorching burst.

 

[Asmor]

They are meant for people without scorching burst.

Ding! We have a winner!

Alchemist's Fire is a handy minion-popper for, for example, a fighter.

 

[77IM]

Alchemical items use the same pricing structure as consumables but look considerably weaker to me. Contrast level 13 bloodstinger poison and a level 9 venom whetstone -- the magical one is way, way better, and cheaper.

I don't have a good suggestion for how to fix this. Some sort of price cut for alchemical items seems in order, but the items themselves vary in strength and utility. For example, that bloodstinger poison seems very weak, so maybe 1/5 price; while alchemists' fire is one of the better ones, and could be worth maybe half price...?

-- 77IM

 

[Asmor]

I'd say a better solution would be to adjust the item's level or power appropriately so that the cost is correct.

All consumable items of a particular level should cost the same, and level should be a good judge of power.

 

[Regicide]

Well, I'm sorry, I can never justify paying 45,000 gp for an item that is less effective than my at-will scorching burst!

Then don't use it. The alchemy stuff looks like one of the few parts of the book that isn't blatent power creep. WotC tossed everything out the window for balance, now they've tossed balance out the window. I'm sick of 3.5E adventures being unplayable without massive adjustments by the DM because the players use a couple splatbooks and can slaughter stuff far beyond their supposed balanced level. Adventurer's Vault and Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook have already screwed over 4E in the same way, only now modules cost $30.

 

[Byronic]

Ding! We have a winner!

Alchemist's Fire is a handy minion-popper for, for example, a fighter.

I believe that there's a much more efficient solution. There's a Wonderous Item (I believe level 3) that allows you to breath fire like a Dragonborn once per day for an attack bonus equal to your level + 5. Flask of Dragonbreath.

 

[Wycen]

In one 4E game my character got swarmed, by something I assume acts like a swarm.

In my other group running Keep on the Shadowfell, we were headed to the keep and I asked, "Is their some place we can get alchemist's fire?" Everyone including the DM looked like a deer caught in headlights. Needless to say we have no clue where alchemical gear is.

Until now apparently. Let me get this straight. 1 unit of Alchemist's fire costs 75 gp? Compared to a potion of healing (10 hp) which costs 50 gp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

In one 4E game my character got swarmed, by something I assume acts like a swarm.

In my other group running Keep on the Shadowfell, we were headed to the keep and I asked, "Is their some place we can get alchemist's fire?" Everyone including the DM looked like a deer caught in headlights. Needless to say we have no clue where alchemical gear is.

Until now apparently. Let me get this straight. 1 unit of Alchemist's fire costs 75 gp? Compared to a potion of healing (10 hp) which costs 50 gp.

The alchemists fire has the potential to do more than 10hp worth of damage if used well.