D&D 4E Is 4E doing it for you?

[Darkthorne]

Btw In regards to each role having to be filled. I was the only person in the group playing a leader (Eladrin cleric, laser type) while the dm was running one of the wotc adventures (h1?) and each time I couldn't show we consitently had at least one PC death (4 instances) in the group (sad bit was most of the time it was the same player through no fault of his own). There was also one encounter (undead) that I was part of I knew if I didn't show that night they would have had a tpk (ranger, wizard and fighter went down. Leaving the cleric [me], the rogue & warlock) and all this happened prior to third level. I think that is way too much to be a coincidence. Also the encounters don't get tweaked at all, so with me gone it's still a 5 person group. Make of that what you will. And like I said my third group will find out how this fares w/o the optimal build

 

[pukunui]

As a DM, I am enjoying 4e much more than I ever did 3.5. I think they did a wonderful job streamlining my duties ... and I also think that they did a wonderful job streamlining movement and stuff like that. However, I'm yet to be convinced that giving all classes spells was a good idea.

One of the other guys in the group runs a SWSE game and we alternate between his game and my D&D game. As much as it pains me to admit it, I actually think I prefer the SWSE system to the 4e system. For all the talk of 4e making D&D more streamlined and faster, it's still a slow bog crawl compared to SWSE. I also think the essentially feat-based system (if you consider that talents are basically class-only feats) is far more elegant than the powers system.

What I don't like about the power system is that each power has its own attack modifier, its own damage amount, and its own set of keywords. I don't like how you essentially have to use power cards and magic item cards lest you forget what your character can do. The official character sheet just isn't good enough for what the game requires of it.

I also don't like a lot of the marketing tactics that WotC has employed to sell the game to us.

As far as I can tell, my three veteran players are enjoying 4e more than 3.5. The two new guys seem to be enjoying themselves as well. However, I can see some of them struggling to deal with all the powers and all the different modifiers they need for things. Quite frequently they just resort to using basic attacks because they're easier and quicker to resolve than some of the powers (and yes we do use power cards).

So yeah ... 4e is mostly doing it for me. I won't be going back to 3.5 ever, but I may be house ruling 4e quite a bit down the track. WotC streamlined many aspects of the game that I felt needed streamlining (and for the most part they made changes in line with the changes I made to 3.5), but at the same time they added complexity in places that I don't think really needed it.

If it had been up to me, I would've made 4e look more like SWSE (I would've made the clases feat/talent-based, in other words).


Cheers,
Jonny

 

[LostSoul]

Well, that's a good point. 4e doesn't cater to the people who want complexity of any kind. It's not just that it's been reduced to a skirmish game, it's also not a very deep or elegant skirmish game. I think 4e doesn't try to cater to the diehard role-player either.

The people 4e does cater to in spades are the people who want to roll dice and move some minis around and goof off for a few hours with minimal stopping to look stuff up.

That's an interesting point of view. Why do you believe that? Erm, let's say, what in the books makes you think that?

 

[Treebore]

4E has been a big "MEH" for me as well. Fortunately everyone I play C&C with is just as unimpressed with 4E as I am, so my groups stay intact.

4E is a good game, but its not great D&D to me. For the first time ever I see no reason to change the game I play. I am happier where I am. It would have been cool if 4E was the most awesome version of D&D ever, but unfortunately it failed. For me. For the people in my groups.

We get to be "those gamers".

 

[Darkthorne]

I agree 4E is much easier to DM, plan a level etc which I do like. And I do think yes you can reflavor the text for the powers to customize as long as the damage is the same type. I've had a good deal of fun playing a 4e cleric and I see that as more versatile than the 3.5 version and the turning is a hell of a lot better.

 

[darjr]

For me and most of the people who are playing 4e in the groups I'm in, it is a yes. It's a great game.

Don't get me wrong, 3.5 is also a great game. I'm in a 3.5 WoW game and a couple of 4e games.

Also me and my son just introduced a newbie to 4e, a friend of my sons, with the Kobold Hall, fun was had by all. He then went with us to our two sunday games, one of them being the afore mentioned WoW game, and an RPGA 4e event.

My son and his friend had a blast in both games. In the 4e game they even had fun 'dying', what with the death saves and potential to jump back into the action on a crit death save.... and potential to really be dead on three failures. That little mechanic is genius.

 

[Benimoto]

Well, that's a good point. 4e doesn't cater to the people who want complexity of any kind. It's not just that it's been reduced to a skirmish game, it's also not a very deep or elegant skirmish game. I think 4e doesn't try to cater to the diehard role-player either.

I don't know, Felon. I've played a lot of skirmish games and I find that 4e does a lot of things well that many skirmish games fail at. Mostly it's in the so-called "extended sweet spot math" that keeps the dice important at all levels, but also it's in the way 4e is set up so that going first isn't an overwhelming advantage. Those are two very common flaws that repeatedly disappoint me in all sorts of skirmish-type games, but that 4e minimizes.

I'm curious, what kinds of skirmish games do you feel have a deepness or elegance that 4e lacks?

The people 4e does cater to in spades are the people who want to roll dice and move some minis around and goof off for a few hours with minimal stopping to look stuff up.

I admit I kind of fall into that category. However, I don't see how minimizing looking stuff up in any way undermines complexity, unless it's sheer rules complexity. I've played 4e sessions with complex characters, complex plots, complex battles and all sorts of roleplaying.

 

[Korgoth]

I'm currently in 3 groups. One I have been in since '86 and unfortunately this group just gave up on D&D entirely. 4E took away what they felt made D&D unique. Couple of POV's were once you took away the flavor text every attack is identical to the next, the versatility that Wizards once had is now gone. Yes I know they don't run out of spells now, but quantity does not equal quality. 3.5 I could have 3 human 1st lvl wizards that could still be completely different, in 4E that is not possible. Also the "forcing" of needing each role filled does suck. I am the only one of this group that is pro 4e but I can't change the level of disgust this group has for 4E (I was surprised at the amount).

The 2nd group I have been with for about 5 years and part of the first group makes up the 2nd group (small percentage) however the group just felt like they were going through the motions not really getting into it like they once did.

My third group (meets once a month if I am lucky) has been together for about 3 years and so far really like 4e (3.5 was too complicated for them) but we are about to see what happens when each role is not filled as I just switched from a int warlord to a swordmage.

D&D I have been doing for the greater part of my life and I hope it continues but now it seems like it's on a lifeline. Also this is not to bash 4E just wondering what people's honest opinion is.

Thanks for your responses

I think you should not waste your time with a game that does not give you the play experience that you want.

I play Old School D&D. I am playing in a Mentzer campaign and running an Empire of the Petal Throne (from 1975... still in print!... basically OD&D) campaign.

You can legally purchase a PDF of the 3 Brown Books from RPGnow or whatever it's called for like $6. Play that (can't get much more D&D than the original). Or play 1E. Or Classic. There's all sorts of bad@ss D&D out there just waiting to be played.

Why play 4E just because it's the latest version? Role playing games are designed so that when you find one you like, you can play it for the rest of your life if you want. Don't be a consumer, be a creator.

 

[Ourph]

Now I'm having the most fun DMing than I think I ever had before.

I endorse this message. 4e is the only reason I'm actually running a D&D game right now. If I had to choose between running a 3e game and quitting the hobby, I would quit. I'll play just about anything, but DMing for 3e nearly killed my interest in roleplaying completely.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, that's a good point. 4e doesn't cater to the people who want complexity of any kind. It's not just that it's been reduced to a skirmish game, it's also not a very deep or elegant skirmish game. I think 4e doesn't try to cater to the diehard role-player either.

I tend to think 4E doesn't cater to people that want inherent complexity in the system. You have plenty of emergent complexity when playing the game.

3E featured a lot of "default tactics" that sprung from the inherent complexity of the system - casting a host of buff spells, buying Wands of CLW, stuff like that. But once you've figured this stuff us, there was little complexity to be had.

At least compared to 4E - there is no "pre-combat tactic" to devise. You have to act to the situation. There are a few guidelines from the roles, but when it is a good idea to bring out a daily power, when you should put out your encounter attack that also provides healing, that all depends heavily on what kind of monsters you face, how the battlefield looks like, how the enemies and allies are distributed along the area and so on.

Of course, this system removes a lot of the "fun" to be had off the game table, when you were at home and selected your masterful combination of spells or feats, and pre-calculated the various attack bonuses and AC values you had to expect. This might sound like homework (and im some ways, it is), but it was a part of the game and it caused fun, because unlike "real" homework, you know that the stuff you got to do with it would be fun.

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4E is "doing it for me". I have a lot of fun, both as a player and as a DM.