D&D 4E Is 4E doing it for you?

[Darkthorne]

Fifth,
Ok, taking price point into account MM is about 60 pages bigger than the DMG. The quantities sold of the MM should be on par w/ the DMG correct? (let me know if you think I'm wrong and why) Anyone planning on reffing would need both as I see it. Also not all the difference in page count need to made up. I don't have my books with me but roughly how many pages does the magic items take up? You can fit about maybe 6 powers per page, using that for powers would be immense as I see it.
Thanks

 

[Irda Ranger]

As for more at will I think it would have been better to go up to possibly 6 at will powers by the end of your pc's career. Also being able to get more than just one [insert level choice] encounter or daily power I think could have added to 4E versatility. Again I want to repeat I do like 4E (being a DM is easier, clerics are better, warlocks did well in the conversion) but I think more could have been added up front

That being a subjective opinion, you're entitled to it. I think the balance is pretty good. Have you played 4E much? There's a lot more to 4E than just your powers.

I also think the varieties vs. page-bloat balance was decent for a PHB1. But have no fear! Martial Power, Arcane Power, etc. will be coming down the pike with many more powers, feats, etc., so I think your concern is temporary on the variety angle.

That's a 30% volume difference!

That's a reasonable argument when buying milk or gasoline ...

 

[Desdichado]

Which 1st level spells are that important for intrigue? Without looking at my PHB, I can only think of Charm Person...

?? Tons of them. Hypnotize? Sleep? Obscuring Mist? Disguise self? Silent Image? Ventriloquism?

Just a few off the top of my head.

There's also not 4-5 combat options. More like 20-30.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Here is the problem. Its the DM that decides what items exist at all, so putting them in the PHB because players "need " them is a moot point. Not including something which may not not exist in a particular game isn't hiding it. Including it might lead to dissappointed players who feel entitled to a given item because its in the PHB.

And I think your assumption is wrong in that regard that per default, the system assumes that these items exist. Just like they assume that certain classes and races exist. The moment the designers decided that you had to account for magical items to balance the game system, the moment it was no longer just in the hands of the DM. And that point was already achieved in 3E, and that the magical items are not in the PHB was just because the entire concept was so new that they didn't understand all the implications yet.

If the DM finds a particular item is inappropriate for his campaign, he does the same as he would do with a particular spell, feat, skill, or class he wants to restrict. Convince your player that despite all their entitlement issues, they want be allowed to use them. If you can't do that, maybe that is a sign that the DM and the player have different ideas on the game they play and should try to work them out before they go on!

 

[MerricB]

?? Tons of them. Hypnotize? Sleep? Obscuring Mist? Disguise self? Silent Image? Ventriloquism?

Just a few off the top of my head.

There's also not 4-5 combat options. More like 20-30.

Hypnotise has gone walkabout.
Sleep is in 4e.
Obscuring Mist has wandered up to Wall of Fog, 6th level Utility.
Disguise Self is in 4e, but as a 6th level Utility.
Silent Image has gone walkabout. (Hallucinatory Item? level 5 ritual?)
Ventriloquism is in 4e - Audible Glamer (at will cantrip).

Cheers!

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Is 4e doing it for you?

Yes.

 

[Allister]

The top-down approach I think CAN work, but it works best in a system that DOESN'T have expansions.

The top-down approach is what got the Polymorph mess and is where many of the exploits come from as the original designer didn't intend for this to work with the new mechanic/spla and the new designer isn't expected to check all previous versions.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

?? Tons of them. Hypnotize? Sleep? Obscuring Mist? Disguise self? Silent Image? Ventriloquism?

Just a few off the top of my head.

There's also not 4-5 combat options. More like 20-30.

I give you Disguise Self. The rest makes me wonder what kind of intrigues you did have in mind.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Have you used many rituals? We're lvl 7 and we haven't really had to use them much yet. We used one Raise Dead ritual off a scroll to get a party member back. Other than that our wizard barely remember their rituals because they never find a use for them. One wizard cast Floating Disc, but it was just a nuisance following the wizard around while he was in combat.

Rituals seem kind of pointless. I'm sure they get better, but at the moment they have no use in our group at lvl 1 through 7. Maybe they get more useful at higher level.

4E is so centered around combat that rituals are just an afterthought. Not many doors are locked. Not many effects are permanent that can't be shaken off with a save. There just doesn't seem to be much of a need for rituals. Even the parcel treasure system makes it so enchanting items is a waste of time. Seems like Alchemy will be more useful to most ritual users.

That's sorta my point - 1st level wizards get to pick three rituals. Wow-ee, what an amazing range to choose from! (not).

Rituals could have been a real selling point for wizards (and to a lesser extent clerics) yet there is such a narrow, narrow selection. The should at least have beefed up the number of 1st-5th level rituals so that the people playing could have a wide range of choices until the 'ritual sourcebook' eventually appears...

Cheers

 

[Desdichado]

Hypnotise has gone walkabout.
Sleep is in 4e.
Obscuring Mist has wandered up to Wall of Fog, 6th level Utility.
Disguise Self is in 4e, but as a 6th level Utility.
Silent Image has gone walkabout. (Hallucinatory Item? level 5 ritual?)
Ventriloquism is in 4e - Audible Glamer (at will cantrip).

Cheers!

Thanks, uh... but I wasn't talking about what they were in 4e. We were talking about options available in 3e.