XP working as intended?

[Kzach]

I'm running a campaign for four players at the moment and I'm finding that ten encounters per level is way off the mark.

So far I've run two combat encounters, a skill challenge, and two traps and the PC's are half-way to level 2. The next two combats I have planned will just about give them 2nd level.

The skill challenge and traps I really don't consider encounters. Maybe I'm doing skill challenges wrong but they just don't feel like encounters and certainly don't last as long as encounters.

So four combats and they get a level. Sure, if you add in the skill challenge and traps then it's seven, but even that is three below the supposed average.

What I'm finding is that a fairly intelligent group of players will generally handle combats much more tactically and will therefore do much better. This is not necessarily a bad thing, however it means upping the ante in combat scenarios and therefore XP.

Both fights I've put the players through so far have been 700xp encounters with pretty smart foes using solid tactics. That's almost double the 'challenging' encounter XP value for their level. And so far, I've only had one PC go down (the wizard, due mainly to bad positioning when the combat started) and only one PC use a daily.

How are other DM's finding it?

 

[Drakona]

I've had just the opposite experience. I was trying to get PCs from level 3 to 4 in order to fight a particular foe, and found it took 9 combat encounters, a skill challenge, and two storyline XP blocks! Two long sessions worth.

Party size may have something to do with it. This party has seven players.

The XP progression definitely seems a little slow for my taste. We seem to level about once every three sessions, whereas our 3.5 game had about a 1.5 session pace. I liked the old one better.

Adding to the frustration is that it's much harder to powerlevel PCs than it used to be. Before, I could hand out a too-high-level encounter with a clever solution or that didn't particularly threaten the party for some obscure reason. Nowadays, higher level encounters really are harder and longer. I almost feel like I could write a bad-buy-hp-to-XP conversion table. It really is that constant, and I can't find a shortcut to hand out. Leveling just takes a lot of time whether you do it with easy or hard encounters.

'Course, 4e expects you to give storyline XP, and I do. But I aim for about an encounter's worth. I'd need half a level's worth to get the pace back where I like it, and that just seems like way too much.

 

[Danceofmasks]

This is D&D, and D&D is a tactical game.
Skilled players do better, and therefore level faster.
Below a certain threshold, a lack of skill will get players killed repeatedly until they give the game up in disgust.

 

[chitzk0i]

So far I've run two combat encounters, a skill challenge, and two traps and the PC's are half-way to level 2.

You put them through five encounters and they're halfway to the next level? Like, exactly on track?

I've had just the opposite experience. I was trying to get PCs from level 3 to 4 in order to fight a particular foe, and found it took 9 combat encounters, a skill challenge, and two storyline XP blocks! Two long sessions worth.

It took ten whole encounters' worth of XP for them to level! What a shock!

Seriously. If you want them to level faster, figure out what the DMG says to give and add to it. If you want them to level slower, subtract.

 

[Kzach]

You put them through five encounters and they're halfway to the next level? Like, exactly on track?

Way to completely and utterly miss the point.

The skill challenge and traps made up 300xp. I could cut them out entirely and just run five 800xp encounters and the PC's would level. The players aren't having that hard a time with encounters that are supposed to be very difficult.

 

[Henry]

Way to completely and utterly miss the point.

The skill challenge and traps made up 300xp. I could cut them out entirely and just run five 800xp encounters and the PC's would level. The players aren't having that hard a time with encounters that are supposed to be very difficult.

So you're saying that they'd not be challenged at all at first level with a 400 xp or even 600 xp encounter? Wow! That's some pretty smart play. In my experience, two or three level 1 critters, 4 minions, and a level 2 or so Artillery or controller would be a pretty challenging encounter. It could be that your players are just ahead of the curve on their tactical savvy.

Any more details about the PCs and maybe the makeup of one of the encounters they zipped through? Some ability scores, the party makeup, and what critters were in the knock-off encounter?

 

[Stalker0]

The players aren't having that hard a time with encounters that are supposed to be very difficult.

So you don't have a problem with how fast the party is leveling, because you are giving them more xp per encounter then normal. Your problem is that you feel standard xp encounters are too easy.

 

[mattdm]

The skill challenge and traps made up 300xp. I could cut them out entirely and just run five 800xp encounters and the PC's would level.

Are you running the traps as single items without any other creatures or surrounding pressures? They're probably not really worth full XP, then — just like a single non-solo opponent isn't a proper challenge.

The players aren't having that hard a time with encounters that are supposed to be very difficult.

I'm curious to hear about your party composition and the encounters you've been throwing at them.

 

[Kzach]

So you don't have a problem with how fast the party is leveling, because you are giving them more xp per encounter then normal. Your problem is that you feel standard xp encounters are too easy.

Yeah, I guess that's pretty much what I'm saying.

A 400XP encounter wouldn't even be a road-bump to them.

Any more details about the PCs and maybe the makeup of one of the encounters they zipped through? Some ability scores, the party makeup, and what critters were in the knock-off encounter?

Standard Method 2 character creation. I have a couple of custom rules but nothing huge that would alter balance significantly. In fact, the only one in effect at the moment is the abolition of the wizard's spellbook ability. I replace it with daily metamagic abilities, but he hasn't used it as it's a new system he's getting used to anyway.

Four PC's, dwarven fighter, eladrin ranger, eladrin wizard, and human warlord. Nothing special about equipment, bog standard 1st-level stuff.

Admittedly, the first encounter I put them through, they all rolled really well and I rolled very poorly so for that freak situation I can probably put it aside. I should say, however, that this thread isn't the result of just one combat. It's the result of having played in and DM'd numerous games since the release of 4e.

The general trend I'm seeing is that tactically sound groups and intelligent play can make a HUGE difference in how difficult encounters are.

But for argument's sake, the second encounter was 600xp worth of goons and 100xp because of the difficulty of the encounter scenario.

Basically, there is a slums in the centre of a large port town. It's made entirely of cheap, wooden structures, built very close together. Because of this, it's like a rabbit warren, and so is called The Warrens. A group of thugs has banded together and altered several buildings in the centre of this area to allow even narrower alleyways where they built artificial facades on the buildings that had sliding doors every few feet.

They have spotters out in the city who eye potential targets and send them into the Warrens. And of course people just naturally wander in occasionally, ie. the PC's. The situation was that they were in a 1 square by 10 square alleyway and both exits were blocked off by thugs (soldiers). A leader artillery was behind one of the soldiers, throwing force orbs about. And a lurker either side of the PC's attacked from cover and with combat advantage from the sliding doors.

Only one character used their daily and, really, it wasn't necessary. He just wanted to annoy me (it had the potential to burn down the entire city, killing hundreds of innocent people and I don't allow evil PC's).

I got the wizard down to 0 and the fighter down to 2 hit points. But that was unfortunate placing for the wizard at the start of the fight, and really, the warlord still had both heals left plus the dwarf had healing of his own so it wasn't really as bad as it sounds.

Having thought about all this, it's not really a complaint, just an observation. I'd rather have tactically difficult and interesting encounters that fast-track the PC's than lots and lots of little, tedious, boring encounters that turn the game into a snorefest. And it seems like I'll be able to challenge the group well enough that they'll level up pretty quickly.

I guess I just wanted to see what other people's experiences were.

 

[keterys]

I don't even track XP anymore - we tried briefly and no one cared. I just tell people when they're getting close to level and pick thematically appropriate spots.