D&D 4E Does 4E have disarm?

[Mouseferatu]

But you can't get the weapon back if you have -6 to hit ...
I don't think you appreciate just how massive a debuff that is.

I'm well aware of the mechanics. That's one of the reasons I went for Reflex instead of AC; it's an easier attack most of the time.

But the fact is, in most cases, I wouldn't allow an untrained combatant (that is, someone without a disarming power) to wind up with the weapon in-hand; I'd be more likely to say that if you're disarming without a power, the weapon winds up on the ground. (And yes, I should've made that clear in the prior post.) So it won't be an issue most of the time anyway, unless the enemy actually has one of the disarm powers that says "You can wind up holding the weapon."

So 19 times out of 20, it won't be an issue. And that 20th time? That's one of the challenges of facing a foe who has a disarming power.

 

[Victim]

I'm well aware of the mechanics. That's one of the reasons I went for Reflex instead of AC; it's an easier attack most of the time.

But the fact is, in most cases, I wouldn't allow an untrained combatant (that is, someone without a disarming power) to wind up with the weapon in-hand; I'd be more likely to say that if you're disarming without a power, the weapon winds up on the ground. (And yes, I should've made that clear in the prior post.) So it won't be an issue most of the time anyway, unless the enemy actually has one of the disarm powers that says "You can wind up holding the weapon."

So 19 times out of 20, it won't be an issue. And that 20th time? That's one of the challenges of facing a foe who has a disarming power.

So, 19 times out of 20, someone on the disarmer's team spends a move action to grab the weapon on the ground - probably the character doing the disarm.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Under pg 42, doing Dex vs. Reflex ... you get no enhancement on the attack roleto attempt to disarm in that situation [similar to grabbing someone or bullrushing them].

I allowed a player to attempt to sunder a mages staff, using STR vs. Fort. The result was the broken "staff" became the equivalent of a club for the remainder of the fight.

The loss of enhancement, not to mention proficiency [and damage output] make losing an item a huge penalty ... part of the reason for disarm AND sunder being left out for the most part. In a game system where it doesn't seem like being disarmed is a likely occurance, odds are that characters may not invest in back up weapons that can be drawn and used in the interum. The disarm rules aren't as painful if the fighter can say, pull a javelin or hand axe [which he packs to have a ranged weapon] and use that until he can get his sword back.

Ultimately, it isn't bad at early enough levels, or in a low magic campaign [which gives the players the built in enhancements to their defences and attack/dmg to approximate the magical items they are expected to posess], but since they have basically made it so that nearly every class can live with a single magical weapon/implement [a few have to double up, battle cleric, melee ranger and paladin, not to mention multi-classes]. Considering that all thrown magic weapons are returning, and can be used to make EVERY attack in a burst or blast, there is never really a reason to own multiple weapons. And getting them all with the same enhancement bonus would be quite expensive.

[Although, it would be fun for someone to disarm a swordmage only for him to use his sword bond to get the sword back ... could similarly come in handy during a prison break situation after the characters have been disarmed].

 

[Mouseferatu]

So, 19 times out of 20, someone on the disarmer's team spends a move action to grab the weapon on the ground - probably the character doing the disarm.

All right, I thought I knew how I was going to answer this until I looked it up to make sure. I was going to talk about opportunity attacks, but apparently picking up an item doesn't provoke. I guess I was still thinking 3.5.

All right, I'll admit that you've made a fair point. I'd still probably prefer to allow the disarm attempt, but house-rule that picking up an item from the ground while threatened draws an OA (which the target can use to try to grab the object back), just because I really dislike telling the PCs that they can't even try something. (Though as I said, I'd impose a penalty, so their odds of success aren't high to begin with.)

And yeah, at that point, it's more complex than it's worth. But like I said, I hate just saying "No, you can't even attempt it..."

 

[Danceofmasks]

Let me put it this way ...
Even if you write it up as str -5 vs. ref, no damage dealt, weapon drops on the ground, provokes an OA which cancels the attempt if it hits ...

Pick a level 30 weapon-based PC, and pick any 2 mobs he's likely to face (non-elite and non-solo), and then try to justify the use of any other power in preference to a disarm attempt.

The fact that it's still an attractive prospect should speak volumes about how dependent characters are on their weapon, as well as the game mechanics being written around assuming the characters never losing their weapon.

If disarm exists, locking gauntlets have to come back. Stat.

Heck, you don't drop your weapon when stunned, helpless, or even dying (though this one is debatable), anymore.

 

[Mouseferatu]

*shrug*

I don't believe that it is still an attractive prospect in most circumstances, not with all the penalties and caveats involved.

 

[Griogre]

Considering the flexible rules for subdual, I'm not sure that slavers need special disarm attacks.

I would just use Subdual also. However if you really want to disarm characters I would give the monster/NPC a power with a recharge as someone suggested and I would also limit it to something of the creature's level or less.

No one mentioned this, but I can also see Disarm as an Acrobatic Stunt. Failing would put the character prone and give combat advantage so they would probably think about it more.

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

I've gotta go with the Mouse on this one. Something's just not right about being unable to disarm an opponent because it upsets the game balance or is somehow 'unfair.' Now, what to do about it...

The basic concept of disarm is "I knock your weapon out of your hand and put my blade to your throat." It's an 'I win' button, really. Do we have an 'I win' button in 4E combat? Why yes we do, ladies and gents, it's the Intimidate check! I don't have my PHB with me right now but IIRC, you may make an Intimidate check against a bloodied opponent to force them to surrender so long as you can do so in a language the foe understands. EVERYONE understands the disarm/blade-to-the-throat.

My houserule would be that you can make an Intimidate check substituting the weapon's stat (either STR or DEX) for CHA to disarm and defeat an opponent.

Why not make it some kind of combat action like in 3E? Because disarming a foe results in either A) nothing, she goes and picks up her weapon or B) he is immediately swarmed and overwhelmed/you take his weapon and beat him with it. Hence the disarm, for practical purposes, needs to be a 'save or suck' idea FOR THE PCs.

I believe the OP, however, was interested in disarming the PCs. Totally different idea. I'm going to agree with several folks that the power should be a recharge (5,6 or just 6);mine would use the opponent's best attack bonus and a hit causes the PCs weapon to drop in their own square and does 1[W] of damage (mostly frustration and demoralization). Don't take a PCs big nasty weapon unless you've got some narrative to back it up.

 

[RefinedBean]

Have the disarm be an encounter power, and give little clues during the encounter as to where the PCs could pick up some "improvised" weapons and implements. That way, probably about half the party is going to end up disarmed and scrambling to find a way to defend themselves. Depending on who still has their weapon/implement/whatever, hilarity could ensue!

I've always seen Disarm as more of an encounter design issue, and not so much mechanics. However, it did get pretty cheesy in 3E...

 

[Squire James]

I've noticed that swashbucklers in movies rarely disarm EARLY in a combat, unless there is a serious disparity of power, so I'd say it's a Dex -2 vs. Reflex attack that requires the target to be bloodied. Either make it an encounter ability, or put a cumulative -2 penalty per missed attempt.