Rule "Yes"

[jensun]

I wouldn't even say it's a DM vs the Players issue. It's more of an issue with players purposefully asking dumb things they know won't fly, but ask it anyways just in case.

The "rules of yes" is nice and all, but sometimes you do have to say "No, you cannot dual wield great crossbows that are two sizes bigger then normal."

I advise finding better players. It solves most of these issues.

Also, was the rule of yes the one in the 4e book that had the example of the DM being told what to do? Because that was like the worst argument ever for that rule

Page reference? I have read the DMG and dont remember anything like this.

If it was there I might well be tempted to applaud it. The idea of the Viking Hatted GM ruling by dictat from his Ivory Tower is one that needs to die.

Yes I am exaggerating for effect and no I am not comparing you to said GM however its pretty obvious that such people do exist.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Page reference? I have read the DMG and dont remember anything like this.

If it was there I might well be tempted to applaud it. The idea of the Viking Hatted GM ruling by dictat from his Ivory Tower is one that needs to die.

Yes I am exaggerating for effect and no I am not comparing you to said GM however its pretty obvious that such people do exist.

No, it's the example where the kid tells the DM exactly what they're going to find in the dungeon. "I'm going to find a chest around the corner that has x item in it."

It has nothing to do with the kid using their imagination. Imagination is great, but telling the DM what to do is why so many DMs hesitate to say "yes" in the first place. If you want to go in and make your own story exactly how you want it, you're not really playing the right game.

 

[jensun]

No, it's the example where the kid tells the DM exactly what they're going to find in the dungeon. "I'm going to find a chest around the corner that has x item in it."

It has nothing to do with the kid using their imagination. Imagination is great, but telling the DM what to do is why so many DMs hesitate to say "yes" in the first place. If you want to go in and make your own story exactly how you want it, you're not really playing the right game.

Can you provide a page reference?

Also, how would you react to a player wanting to detail say, the beliefs and structure of his church, the organisation of the Wizards Guild he is a member of, the smugglers in the city he used to work for or his old mercenary company?

That sort of stuff is bread and butter to our group. Our current setting started with perhaps 80% of the setting material having been written by the players and I am always asking them for their input into it as the game moves along.

 

[Scribble]

Tips from the Pros

Something amazing happened one time I was playing D&D with my 9-year-old son. When we finished an encounter, my son took over. He decided that he was going to search around one of the statues in the room, that he was going to get hit by a trap (an arrow would shoot out at the statue), and that he’d find a treasure there. Hey, wait a minute. I thought I was the DM!
That was my first reaction. But I bit my tongue. I rolled damage for the trap, and I let him have his treasure. (I determined what it was—I wasn’t about to relinquish that much control.)
He never enjoyed the game more. I learned the most important lesson about D&D that day. I remembered that this is a game about imagination, about coming together to tell a story as a group. I learned that the players have a right to participate in telling that story—after all, they’re playing the protagonists!
—James Wyatt

9 year old dude... 9 year old son.

Seriously the quote isn't about letting the players have all control. It's about not imediately saying no simply because the player thought of it, and you didn't. It's about the game being a group effort, and not an adversarial game.

 

[jensun]

9 year old dude... 9 year old son.

Seriously the quote isn't about letting the players have all control. It's about not imediately saying no simply because the player thought of it, and you didn't. It's about the game being a group effort, and not an adversarial game.

Aah, I remember it now. It makes a lot of sense.

 

[El Mahdi]

Can you provide a page reference?

Also, how would you react to a player wanting to detail say, the beliefs and structure of his church, the organisation of the Wizards Guild he is a member of, the smugglers in the city he used to work for or his old mercenary company?

That sort of stuff is bread and butter to our group. Our current setting started with perhaps 80% of the setting material having been written by the players and I am always asking them for their input into it as the game moves along.

I don't know what ProffesorCirno thinks, but I think that's awesome. If my players understood the game and fantasy in general a bit more I'd encourage them to do this also. Sounds like your group has tremendous buy-in to the game.

 

[Walknot]

Honestly, I wish my party would ask more so I'd get more chances to say "Yes". I've gone ahead and allowed them some things they did not even ask for, to get the message across, but everyone's probably a bit too used to the default answer being "No" in other games.

Guesse it is a two-way street. Maybe as a player, we should come to the table with some wild ideas. Or just be more open to our imaginations. If we don't give our DM's the chance to say Yes/No, then we can not wonder why they don't change. And if we do, eureka! Either assumption could be self-fulfilling.

 

[jensun]

I don't know what ProffesorCirno thinks, but I think that's awesome. If my players understood the game and fantasy in general a bit more I'd encourage them to do this also. Sounds like your group has tremendous buy-in to the game.

To me its the biggest benefit of creating the setting co-operatively.

The majority of in game problems would be solved by three very simple things:

1. Talking about the game you want to play beforehand
2. Creating the characters together, not just mechanics but story
3. Playing with people you would choose to socialise with away from the gaming table

 

[Mallus]

Imagination is great, but telling the DM what to do is why so many DMs hesitate to say "yes" in the first place.

My experience is that DM's hesitate to say 'yes' mainly because 1) they lack confidence in their ability to improvise and 2) they can only conceive of their players asking for some sort of freebie or unfair advantage (they don't consider that the players might simply want to narrate some things to make the game more interesting/entertaining).

If you want to go in and make your own story exactly how you want it, you're not really playing the right game.

How in the world does getting to establish one (or even several) in-game elements equate to making "your own story exactly the way to want it"? A DM can say "yes" to the players --frequently-- without relinquishing control of the campaign.

 

[jensun]

Actually I will go several stages further.

I routinely give my players narrative control during the game.

If a player asks if there is a contact to his old guild in town I turn the question back on him. Is there a contact, if so tell me who he is and why he is here. Give me a quirk or an issue or a complication surrounding them.

I also use it routinely if we are using the skill challenge system or when just using straight forward skill checks.

We routinely set stakes during skill challenges and when using skills. We agree, in advance, what each side wants and what the outcome for success or failure might be. If the player succeeds then they get to narrate the "how" of their success.