Spiked Shield = win (I think)

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Rogue weapon talent for daggers (and parrying dagger) is +1 to hit, not +1 die size.

Doh! I was thinking of the shuriken boost. Luckily, that mistake actually makes my point stronger...

And from an optimization standpoint the +1 Reflex from shield spec is better than removing the skill check penalty, even though personally I'd generally prefer the better checks.

I'd rather have the +1 Reflex, but that's me. With scale, the choice is a little harder (+1 speed vs. +1 Reflex), but I'd still lean towards Shield Specialisation over Scale Specialisation, although taking both isn't that bad a deal: +1 AC, +1 Reflex, and +1 speed for the cost of two feats.

Having said that, adding the armour specialisation feats to the equation changes things somewhat (and I'd also forgotten that the spiked shield wielder can also benefit from TWF). So:

Weapon Proficiency (parrying dagger) (+1 AC (untyped)) + TWF feat (+1 damage with main weapon) + TWD feat (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (shield bonus)) + Armour Specialisation (Chainmail) (+1 AC (feat bonus), no penalty on certain skill checks) = +3 AC/+1 Reflex
damage: d4 (+1 on main)
other: 4 feats used

Weapon Proficiency (spiked shield) (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (shield bonus)) + TWF feat (+1 damage with main weapon) + Shield Specialisation feat (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (feat bonus)) = +2 AC/+2 Reflex
damage: d6 (+1 on main)
other: 3 feats used

The parrying dagger gives +1 to AC, but the spiked shield gives +1 to Reflex and does more damage. Much harder to call, but I think spiked shield still has a slight edge, especially considering the parrying dagger route costs an extra feat. The parrying dagger wielder has no skill check penalty for wearing chainmail, but the spiked shield wielder can have the same at the cost of another feat.

I'm mainly annoyed about the double weapons; I just mentioned the parrying dagger for completeness's sake. It seems like double sword is really just the best option for a tempest fighter, and that bugs me.

That does look like a winner. Let's compare:

Weapon Proficiency (double sword) (+1 AC (untyped)) + TWF feat (+1 damage with main weapon) + TWD feat (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (shield bonus)) + Armour Specialisation (Chainmail) (+1 AC (feat bonus), no penalty on certain skill checks) = +3 AC/+1 Reflex
damage: d8 off-hand. d8 +1 main
other: 4 feats used

Weapon Proficiency (spiked shield) (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (shield bonus)) + TWF feat (+1 damage with main weapon) + Shield Specialisation feat (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (feat bonus)) + Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) = +2 AC/+2 Reflex
damage: d6 off-hand. d10 +1 main
other: 4 feats used

I'd call this one a wash.

 

[boolean]

Doh! I was thinking of the shuriken boost. Luckily, that mistake actually makes my point stronger...

I'd rather have the +1 Reflex, but that's me. With scale, the choice is a little harder (+1 speed vs. +1 Reflex), but I'd still lean towards Shield Specialisation over Scale Specialisation, although taking both isn't that bad a deal: +1 AC, +1 Reflex, and +1 speed for the cost of two feats.

You're better off taking Lightning Reflexes instead of Shield Spec.

Weapon Proficiency (spiked shield) (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (shield bonus)) + TWF feat (+1 damage with main weapon) + Shield Specialisation feat (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (feat bonus)) + Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) = +2 AC/+2 Reflex
damage: d6 off-hand. d10 +1 main
other: 4 feats used

I'd call this one a wash.

I'd give an edge to the Double Sword, because both ends of the DS have +3 proficiency, while the Spiked Shield is only +2.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

You're better off taking Lightning Reflexes instead of Shield Spec.

You're right: Lightning Reflexes + Armor Specialisation > Shield Specialisation + Armor Specialisation

I'd give an edge to the Double Sword, because both ends of the DS have +3 proficiency, while the Spiked Shield is only +2.

Also a good point.

Weapon Proficiency (double sword) (+1 AC (untyped)) + TWF feat (+1 damage with main weapon) + TWD feat (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (shield bonus)) + Armour Specialisation (Chainmail) (+1 AC (feat bonus), no penalty on certain skill checks) = +3 AC/+1 Reflex
damage: +3 to hit, d8 off-hand / +3 to hit, d8 +1 main
other: 4 feats used

Weapon Proficiency (spiked shield) (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (shield bonus)) + TWF feat (+1 damage with main weapon) + Shield Specialisation feat (+1 AC/+1 Reflex (feat bonus)) + Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) = +2 AC/+2 Reflex
damage: +2 to hit, d6 off-hand / +3 to hit, d10 +1 main
other: 4 feats used

Slight edge to double sword.

Edit: Actually, maybe not an edge to the double sword. The main hand weapon will be used for attacking far more often, so the superior main hand attack of the spiked shield wielder offsets his inferior off-hand attack in my opinion.

 

[Allister]

You can also place enchantments on the spiked shield whereas the double sword can only have 1 enchantment on the main end....

 

[eamon]

A spiked shield + bastard sword wielder will probably not take the tempest path since the bastard sword is not an off-hand weapon. Such a character will have +1 (scale vs. chain) +1 (shield) +1 (armor spec), which nicely balances with the double sword (+1 defensive) +1 (spec feat) +1(TWD).

However, the "normal" shield wielder still has a one AC advantage.

 

[Gloombunny]

Why would a non-tempest fighter be using a spiked shield at all? Do you really have so many empty feat slots lying around that you want to spend one just so you can spend another on getting +1 damage with your bastard sword? It's not like you're ever going to attack with the spiked shield if you don't have powers that specifically call for off-hand attacks.

 

[jedrious]

Why would a non-tempest fighter be using a spiked shield at all? Do you really have so many empty feat slots lying around that you want to spend one just so you can spend another on getting +1 damage with your bastard sword? It's not like you're ever going to attack with the spiked shield if you don't have powers that specifically call for off-hand attacks.

Oddly enought I have a swordmage in my group whose primary weapon is a Spiked Shield

 

[Baumi]

Why would a non-tempest fighter be using a spiked shield at all? Do you really have so many empty feat slots lying around that you want to spend one just so you can spend another on getting +1 damage with your bastard sword? It's not like you're ever going to attack with the spiked shield if you don't have powers that specifically call for off-hand attacks.

I have to agree, the spiked shield really seems to be for very specific "builds" like Tempest or maybe a multiclassed Fighter who wants a hand free for the Implement.

For other classes it seems even worse: A rogue could use it as a light Weapon but he lacks the Shield Proficiency, so he need 2 Feets just to learn this weapon. The Ranger is better of with a bigger off-hand Weapon or a double Weapon and all other classes are missing two-weapon powers so they have no advantage from the weapon until they learn TWF (with two Feats they could learn TWF and TWD with any off-hand Weapon instead and would be better off).

Maybe the damage/Properties should be better (like a Charge Bonus) or it should be a martial weapon, to make it more attractive.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

HOWEVER, proficiency is not required to wield a weapon. So I can see the case of the answer being '2 feats: TWD (and TWF).' Even though the character isn't proficient in the spiked shield, he is holding two melee weapons and meets the RAW to claim TWD. Also, the spiked shield does NOT have the 'defensive' property, which specifies the need to be proficient.

But where it gets fun is using the Tempest Fighter build previewed.
A tempest fighter gets TWD for free, without TWF.
So, he could get +2 AC and Ref just by carrying a spiked shield.

I'd missed this bit earlier. Proficiency is not required to wield a weapon, but it is required to gain the AC/Reflex benefits of a shield (PHB p.213-214).

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

A spiked shield + bastard sword wielder will probably not take the tempest path since the bastard sword is not an off-hand weapon.

Remember that only one of a double sword's attacks acts as an off-hand weapon (see the shaded text on AV p.10), so the double sword-wielding tempest fighter is using only a single off-hand weapon, just like a bastard sword + spiked shield tempest fighter. The difference is that the bastard sword wielder is doing more damage with his main attack.

If you want to go with an off-hand weapon in your main hand, your best bet is the scourge. The tempest fighter build gives this weapon a +1 to hit and damage, giving it an attack bonus equivalent to a longsword, but with a +0.5 to average damage. It still does inferior damage to a bastard sword, but at least it doesn't cost a feat.