Profession/Crafting skills: Why?

[Nahat Anoj]

While I'm not upset that Craft got the boot, I could see a place for it. *If* it was kind of a "mundane Arcana." That is, you could use it to detect the value of an item, appraise the soundness/weakness of a structure, jury-rig something, disarm mechanical devices, know stuff about contructs or vehicles, and so on. Craft "rituals" could be used as the basis of learning "recipes" for mundane items - although items made with Epic Craft "rituals" would be truly badass. Classes that would get Craft as a Class skill might be Rogues, Wizards, Artificers, and Fighters.

So I definitely think an adventure-focused version of Craft can be made, and I think it would dovetail nicely into 4e, particularly for more steampunk-y games. Just about the only "problem" is that dwarves should really get a +2 bonus to Craft - should they give up their +2 to Endurance or their +2 to Dungeoneering to get it? (I'm tempted to say Endurance, because they already get a little boost from their +2 Con, but it still sticks in my craw! ).

 

[Masada]

Well one aspect of most RPG games is control of items. I suppose a really good DM knows exactly how many healing potions and other misc magic items to allow in his/her game. But what if you're not a good DM yet, a mechanic helps you understand how rare an item should be. You don't see similar issues about castles because you can't haul them in to a dungeon and most RPG's assume the characters are going to be fairly mobile.

Part of this stems from the idea that someone should be able to make kickbutt gear. If you've got a hot shot Wizard, it seems weird that he can't make anything... or that there are no bounds on what he can make. It begs the question of "who's making all this stuff?"

Next issue is about buying goods... Do you always want every town to have a "Majics R Us" store of fully stocked goods? As soon as you tell the players they can't buy Healing Potions here, the next question is going to be, "Can I make one?" So, again, handy to have a mechanic as a guide for allowing some player benefits without unbalancing the game or just saying No. Even if you do have a lot of stores around... I've always found the notion of toting around 10,000 gold coins fairly far fetched as well.

To answer your question directly... Do you *need* a mechanic? Well, no you don't. You just have to be keenly aware of what power you're introducing. But the better question is... Could anyone benefit from having a mechanic? The answer is still, "Yes, newer DM's/players might benefit from a guide to help adjust what level of power to introduce."

It's just a game... I suppose you could hand wave and say items made at the magic factory can be bought anywhere and purchased with an international standard currency. I mean it is just stuff... but I dunno... makes the world seem sorta flat and unbelievable. Yeah, I know it's a fantasy game.

Of course, knowing players, the next question will be, "When does the magic delivery wagon arrive? What route does it take? Any good spots for ambush?"

 

[Rechan]

Part of this stems from the idea that someone should be able to make kickbutt gear. If you've got a hot shot Wizard, it seems weird that he can't make anything... or that there are no bounds on what he can make. It begs the question of "who's making all this stuff?"

Well I put forward that there's no need to have a mechanic to determine if he rolled a 1 or not when trying to put it together.

I say just announce "Okay, you make it. Pay x gold." X may be 1/2 market price or whatever you want.

There's no need to have a "Roll to see if you do it. Oh, sorry, all your gold and time is forfeit."

He either does (because you want him to) or he doesn't.

Could anyone benefit from having a mechanic?

There are a million mechanics you could benefit from, depending on your tastes/flavor in gaming. So should they all be included, considering the potential that someone might benefit from them?

The answer is still, "Yes, newer DM's/players might benefit from a guide to help adjust what level of power to introduce."

Again, level of power = GP. That's really its purpose, as far as I can understand. Besides, a new DM is likely not going to grok the craft rules.

I confess I don't know how GURPS/Ars Magica handle magical items, but I know that at least in HERO, all you do is spend xp to get an item, and now you are just assumed to always have it, no GP required..

I mean it is just stuff... but I dunno... makes the world seem sorta flat and unbelievable.

You mean like how Common is a universal language, and the only distinction is based on Race, instead of geo-political location?

I personally don't see "Craft" making the world any less flat.

Of course, knowing players, the next question will be, "When does the magic delivery wagon arrive? What route does it take? Any good spots for ambush?"

Well, I personally don't believe in BUYING magical items period, but the magic shop is sort've a tride and true trope.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Some crafting skills gave you a lot more (very useful) versatility. I personally house ruled that you'd get a small bonus if using a weapon or armor you made, and craft: alchemy was awesome when more and more items that could be crafted came out. Profession I can grant you, but, at the risk of sounding mean, if you never saw the purpose in craft, then you're doing it wrong, and I would hate to play your games.

As was stated above, I want crafting to be cooler and more detailed, not less.

As for "You rolled one, guess it doesn't count," I'm going to assume that you don't play D&D at all, but instead play Amber. And hopefully I'm right, because otherwise you're a hypocrite.

 

[Runestar]

"But it's part of my background/personality!" Still doesn't explain the necessity for a mechanic. I don't need to take a "Orphan" to designate my family was killed by x. Nor do I need "Lady's Man" to designate my charismatic character as being a woman chaser. Or even "Drunkard" to designate that I immediately go for the alehouse as soon as we roll into town with our swag. (Exceptions made for HERO and SotC, where these have actual impact on the system).

Your rationale does not justify your premise.

A lady's man would be characterized by a male PC with high cha and good ranks in the associated skills, such as diplomacy, bluff, sense motive etc (plus the appropriate roleplaying), and less so of some sort of "lady's man" background feat.

Orphan is less of a trait, and more of fluff (in that it has no specific connotations/roleplaying burdens of its own, but can be used to justify why your character is the way he/she is). You don't so much take ranks in orphan, but rather, take ranks in skills which you ought to have as a result of being an orphan (eg: thievery because you are forced to learn how to survive on the streets?).

Same for craft skills. If your PC is supposed to be good at basketweaving for some reason, then he should have the requisite skill points to reflect this. Some DMs may be more accodomating and hand-wave this over, others may prefer that their character's stats mirror exactly/precisely what the player feels his PC ought to be capable of. It is more a matter of preference.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

What I personally find odd with the idea of separate Professions and Crafts skills is the concept that it is some imaginary skill in something that makes you good at it not the actual tangible abilities.

For example, say a person gets Profession basket-weaving and gets high skills in it, but is extremely low in Thievery. Yet he can basket-weave like a master, this doesn't make sense too me. Since Thievery includes one's ability with their hands so if it is low how can the actual physical skill that enables him to basket-weave suddenly not matter since he has the Profession???

I much prefer the method like the Corsair PP from FRPG. It gives specific bonuses to skills, since your bettered trained to use those skills in that specific circumstance BUT! you still need those original skills to perform well.

 

[Runestar]

Well, profession is int-based. So the interesting thing (as pointed out) is that dex is irrelevant in basket weaving. The 30-dex elf makes the same quality basket (and consequently, the same income) as the 8-dex human!

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well, profession is int-based. So the interesting thing (as pointed out) is that dex is irrelevant in basket weaving. The 30-dex elf makes the same quality basket (and consequently, the same income) as the 8-dex human!

Which is why I find Professions and Craft to be very silly and glad they are gone. If they do what they did with the Corsair as say a feat (for just the skills-part) I think that be more then adequate for those that want some reinforcement of Profession/Craft in the rules, while actually making common sense, unlike before.

Or they do specific Profession/Craft backgrounds like they have already done for other things.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Well I put forward that there's no need to have a mechanic to determine if he rolled a 1 or not when trying to put it together.

I say just announce "Okay, you make it. Pay x gold." X may be 1/2 market price or whatever you want.

There's no need to have a "Roll to see if you do it. Oh, sorry, all your gold and time is forfeit."

In which game system did this happen?

He either does (because you want him to) or he doesn't.

This is what happened in 3.x. A craftsman would "take 10" knowing the quality of goods they could produce and fairly precisely how long it would take them. The gp/sp system wasn't that good in specific instances but I suppose as a single system to cover all manner of mundane items, it was good enough - a starting point for the DM nevertheless.

As for your assertion that craft/profession are unnecessary, for certain games it would be. Why bother when you can kill things and take their stuff (normally cheaper than paying a craftsman - but the quality varies). As for others, I can see how it is an important cog in either developing one's character or alternatively as a means to earn some coin or even prestige in a character's downtime. For certain games, such elements are not only important but enjoyed by the players who play this gamestyle. To each their own.

The fact that such things are not in 4E is one of many indicators of which direction the designers have wanted to take the game.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[airwalkrr]

I wasn't opposed to WotC removing Craft/Profession from the game. They were cutting back skills that were underused and overemphasized. While Craft/Profession weren't really taking up a lot of space, they didn't demand a presence in the game. They weren't really necessary and a simple subsystem like an Intelligence or Wisdom check suffices just fine if you want to implement it back in.