Fifth Element
Legend
Point to Mr. Ridcully.I would say the same on "Save or Die" effects...
Your character died. Big deal.
- Thread starter WarlockLord
- Start date
Raven Crowking
First Post
I would say the same on "Save or Die" effects...
Maybe "Death Flag" and "Save or Die" are both advanced mechanics, each aimed at facilitating a certain style of play?
SoD can be used effectively if only one person at the table understands how to use it....namely, the DM. Death-Flag can be used effectively only if everyone at the table understands how to use it. That is, IMHO, a very big difference.
While I agree that no DMG to date has done a good job of explaining how to use SoD mechanics effectively, I submit that this is far simpler to get across than how to use DF mechanics effectively, if only because SoD has no effect on the "win conditions" of the DM, whereas DF changes the "win conditions" of the players radically.
RC
Raven Crowking
First Post
Raven Crowking
First Post
Unfortunately, they will not create an edition of D&D with just one mechanical change. But maybe there will be an Unearthed Arcana variant for D&D 4 that could put it in.
That would no more be a test of DF mechanics than the 3.5 UA was a test of WP/Vitality.
RC
Fifth Element
Legend
I'm not going back through the thread, but you asserted that anyone who dislikes SoD is just using it wrong. The DM is supposed to provide clues, etc, whenever a SoD effect might be encountered.
So if a DM does not do this, he is presumably playing the game wrong.
malraux
First Post
I'd disagree with that though. Everyone needs to understand exactly how and when to use death ward to avoid SoD. Everyone needs to understand what the clues about other creatures mean, etc.
Fifth Element
Legend
That's a very good point. The clues are only useful if they are understood by the players, and the players know what to do to avoid the effects of the SoD in question.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Certain of that - if I wasn't aware that the DM should hint to me the dangers of Save or Die, and I should make special precautions to defeat them, I would still find the eventual SoD effect unfair. "How was I supposed to know that a mirror could work against the Medusa? I mean, where does the RAW state it does?" or "Heck, how was I supposed to know that a Medusa would go around my Hit Points? I mean, why should it even do that?"
And if you find the player I describe stupid, I would find any player that abuses the Death Flag mechanic similarly stupid.
No, both mechanics require the DM and the players to be on the same page.
Raven Crowking
First Post
If a tool can be used effectively to generate fun, but it is instead being used to generate dislike of said tool, then either (1) the tool is being used incorrectly, or (2) the goal is not to have fun, but perhaps to generate dislike. Wrongbadfun means that you are calling someone else's fun "wrong" and/or "bad". If the way you are using something is not fun for you, it is not a claim that you are having "wrongbadfun" to suggest using it in a different manner.
RC
Raven Crowking
First Post
Well, no doubt the RPGs of the future will all have wildly popular DF mechanics, thus proving me wrong.
Until then, years of experience suggest to me that a D&D player in any edition using SoD (but in particular, using Holmes Basic or AD&D 1e) require no previous exposure to D&D or to D&D rules to understand SoD mechanics. Conversely, the "keep 'em alive" advice in the 2nd Ed AD&D DMG led to the nadir of my gaming experience. Using similar mechanics to keep down PC death in The Game of Rassilon also demonstrated to me that (IME, of course) most players can easily understand SoD, but few players can so readily accommodate DF-like mechanics.
YMMV, of course.
(I've heard "A giant spider? But what do these cobwebs have to do with spiders?!?!" so it is true that clues are not always on the same page. But that player easily understood the concept of SoD despite this, and despite it being her first game of D&D.)
RC
