D&D 3E/3.5 Warriors lacking luster in 3.5?

[Kristian Serrano]

What sort of book-keeping are you referring to with respect to ToB? If it is tracking of maneuvers, all you need are the power cards available for free from the wotc website, which makes tracking maneuvers a breeze. Other than that, I can't think of anything that might make them complicated to run (except maybe the crusader, with its delayed damage pool/furious counterstrike mechanic).

I am just curious because I found my warblade rather straightforward and intuitive to run, and was wondering if I had overlooked or missed something?

That's just the common complaint I've heard about that book. Granted most of those complaints came about prior to the availability of the cards on WotC's site, which certainly make the bookkeeping easier; it's still bookkeeping nonetheless.

In any case, some player's don't like any sort of tracking and specifically choose the fighter for that reason. It's a straightforward class to play.

I don't want this to turn into a debate about Book of Nine Swords; it has its merits and I can easily see why the warblade is an exciting alternative to a fighter. I'm just trying to illustrate both sides of the coin, and I think the new fighter feats in PHII are often overlooked as respondents are quick to push ToB rather than consider PHII feats and feat retraining rules.

 

[Runestar]

The reason why I try not to encourage people to play a fighter is because I feel that it is anything but straightforward to run. Yes, once you have everything ironed out, it shouldn't be an issue, but getting there is already 95% of the problem. With its class features being basically extra feats, hundreds of different feats to choose from amongst assorted splatbooks, and virtually no guidance as to how to go about building a functional fighter, it is all too easy to go haywire and screw up your fighter build.

Unlike the warblade, you can't just throw together a bunch of feats and expect the fighter to work. You have to take care to ensure that the various feats synergize properly with and complement one another well. The new PHB2 fighter feats are neat (I give you that), but I feel that they sort of miss the mark in that they just end up allowing the fighter to perform better in a role they never had any problems with in the first place (hitting stuff and dealing damage), while continuing to neglect their traditional shortcomings (lack of options, including a lackluster skill list, reliance on full-attack routine, inability to deal with a wide variety of problems like will-based effects etc).

For example, there was a fleeing enemy. I threw an axe for 5 points of damage. Wizard hurled a spell for 35 damage.

Another example, we were ambushed and a spell targetted my poor touch AC, then next spell my poor reflex save, and with my poor speed it was hard to catch up with the mobile spellcaster. The other PCs proceeded to summon/fireball/earthen grasp/ranged attack/stunning fist the opponents to oblivion.

The problems listed by the OP are not something that can be readily resolved or circumvented by the fighter as is. I don't deny that a well-built fighter can probably one-shot any foe he comes across. It still does not prevent him from almost auto-failing any will-save effect he comes across, or being stuck in a forcecage/maze, or being generally useless outside of any combat scenario.

If the OP wants a character who can perform decently against the issues raised in bold, then I still stick by my original suggestion to play a warblade. Any effort expended in learning how to play one will be more than amply compensated by the rewarding gaming experience it adds.

Can you show me a fighter which can manage a good touch AC, resist reflex/will based effects with ease, possess good mobility on the battlefield while still doing good damage to a foe who is too far away to utilize the full-attack routine?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Can you show me a fighter which can manage a good touch AC, resist reflex/will based effects with ease, possess good mobility on the battlefield while still doing good damage to a foe who is too far away to utilize the full-attack routine?

Not so much a fighter as a warrior type: Dex & Wis based Monk (or monk variant, possibly mixed with PsyWar) with a Polearm for reach and a good ranged weapon selection- say, alchemical grenades and a full Quiver of Ehlonna, possibly with levels in the Kensai, Shiba Protector or Shou Disciple PrCls. Another boost to ranged damage comes with the DCv1 feat, Ring the Golden Bell, which lets a monk use his unarmed strikes at range.

Similar effects can be gained with non-monk classes by taking levels in some Psionic class or with the right Psionic feats.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Can you show me a fighter which can manage a good touch AC, resist reflex/will based effects with ease, possess good mobility on the battlefield while still doing good damage to a foe who is too far away to utilize the full-attack routine?

Druid with monks' belt, Good animal form, and Bite of the Were-X form spells?
The Bite spells really improve a Druid's Stats. Monk Bely ads Wisdom to AC (improving touch AC), and Druids rock in general.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You're doing bastard sword + shield, right? I highly recommend Shield Ward and Shield Specialization (PH2). Latter gives +1 shield AC and is required for the former, which adds your shield AC to touch AC as well as on basically all the opposed checks for combat special attacks (grapple, trip, bull rush...).

I like ToB a lot, but it probably won't work to just dump it into a game that's ignored its existence this long. In terms of power, ToB classes are somewhere between other melee classes and spell casters, strongest around levels 1-5, much like all warrior classes in general. I agree with the psionics comaprison for what you're adding to the game in terms of added rules, though.

As part of the Knight class, your best builds would be towards mounted combat or as defender to the weaker party members, a sort of close-up battlefield controller. Crusaders from ToB are better at the latter option, though, just with the devoted spirit discipline.

 

[Shin Okada]

For example, there was a fleeing enemy. I threw an axe for 5 points of damage. Wizard hurled a spell for 35 damage.

Unless specifically built for ranged attacks, warrior types are not strong in ranged combat. But the same can be said for rogues. And spellcasters are weak in melee instead.

Instead of hurling axes, you would better drink a Potion of Fly or let a party arcane caster fly you. DnD is a game full of magics. And it is designed so that characters cooperation is the best tactics, instead of each characters using their powers only for themselves.

Another example, we were ambushed and a spell targeted my poor touch AC, then next spell my poor reflex save, and with my poor speed it was hard to catch up with the mobile spellcaster. The other PCs proceeded to summon/fireball/earthen grasp/ranged attack/stunning fist the opponents to oblivion.

This is the same issue actually. Every character types has their weakness. Even clerics, which widely recognized as one of the strongest standard class, has poor ref save (and low touch AC either). If your DM always use kind of attacks which is most effective against warriors, and always target the warrior, something is wrong. A DM should throw various attacks. And should target many other PCs, too.

And, again, at that level you should better have access to some way of fly (at least temporally) and/or party caster could cast fly on you.

FYI, both as a DM and a Player, my primary target is cleric and healers. If healers are fallen, other allies can't be healed. So they try to protect healers.

I meant to make a tank for the party, but this first battle left my character feeling somewhat inept. I got Complete Warrior in the hopes of some options, but all it had was a bunch of prestige classes.

I have never actually played or exploited Knight class. But basically, in my experience, full-BAB Str builds never under-shined by others. Weapon attacks are the most generic type of attacks and usually effective against almost everything, while many spells are completely useless against certain (or certain type of) creature. And with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, you can deal tremendous damages, even without many optional rules from splatbooks.

It seems that there could be 3 problems,

1. Your DM may be using creatures and attacks specially effective against warrior types too often. And not threatening other PCs with melee attacks enough.

2. Your party is not acting as a team. Every PCs have weakness. If a warrior can't fly and flying monster is attacking the party, it is usually better to let the warrior fly. If a low-will-save character is paralyzed by hold spells and such, the party cleric should use Remove Paralysis. And if a party caster is attacked by melee brute monster, a warrior should go into melee with it and would better have it within his threatening area, to help the caster escape from it.

3. Maybe Knight class is either weak or hard to exploit. Paladin could be a better tank effective against both melee attacks and spells.

 

[Quickleaf]

Lots of good advice. I think one issue is that some of the players are inexperienced and not used to tactical thinking. Another is that I'm usually a DM and encourage my players to try stunting and cool manuevers, while my new DM is a little more by the book.

Here's my build...

Human 8th Level Knight
Fights with bastard sword+1 and spiked heavy shield of bashing +1
Str: 16, Con: 16, Dex: 10, Int: 13, Wis: 10, Cha: 15
Maxed out Intimidate

Feats (* indicates homebrew):
[human]Son of Hyerdahl* (+1 AC vs. giants, speak Giant, Survival= class skill)
Man Among Giants (+2 fear saves, reduce penalty to resist intimidate/intimidate larger creatures by level)
Power Attack
Shield Specialization (replaces mounted combat bonus feat of knight class)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Improved Shield Bash
Agile Shield Fighter

Class Features:
Knight’s Challenge (6/day)
*Fighting Challenge: CR = 6; +2 attack, damage, Will saves vs. target for 7 rounds
*Test of Mettle: CR = 6, Int = 5, 100’; Will save DC 16; must attack me until attacked by other or 7 rounds
*Call to Battle: Ally retests failed save vs. fear with +2 bonus
Shield Block: +1 shield AC vs. single foe
Bulwark of Defense: Foe beginning w/in threatened area treats as difficult terrain
Armor Mastery: Ignore speed penalty for medium armor
Vigilant Defender: +8 Tumble DC for foes to move thru my space/threatened area
Shield Ally: Immediate; absorb half damage to adjacent ally from ranged/melee attacks

 

[aboyd]

I agree with those who said that you might not be using the Knight's abilities to the fullest.

For example, there was a fleeing enemy. I threw an axe for 5 points of damage. Wizard hurled a spell for 35 damage.

Be careful. The knight is not allowed to attack anyone considered flat-footed. That means that at the start of a battle, you cannot attack anyone if you have won initiative (you can ready an action, though). It might also mean that you cannot throw an axe into a retreating enemy's back. The description for running says that the runner loses the Dex bonus to AC. That sounds close to flat-footed, although probably not quite. Be careful about what the DM rules there.

Don't forget the Knight's advantages here. If that enemy began to flee from a square near you, it should have been easier to catch because squares around the Knight are considered difficult terrain (Bulwark of Defense, p. 28). Also, you should have been able to run as if unencumbered if you were in medium armor or lighter (Armor Mastery, p. 28).

Also, depending upon your reading of Test of Mettle, it may be able to halt a fleeing opponent. It allows you to issue a challenge and if the enemy fails a Will save, they must target you for attacks (ranged or melee, their choice). That might allow you to draw an enemy back to you, depending upon how the DM rules. Personally, I would rule that it only works against people actively engaged in combat. However, a case could be made that since the challenge is honor based and ego based, a fleeing enemy that does not want to be seen/known as a coward might turn around.

Another example, we were ambushed and a spell targetted my poor touch AC, then next spell my poor reflex save, and with my poor speed it was hard to catch up with the mobile spellcaster.

Again, don't forget that with the proper armor, you are effectively unencumbered. Couple that with the Run feat and you are quite swift. Of course, there are two parts to the speed penalty, and being a Knight only removes one of those parts (the armor penalty). You still have to watch your weight.

I got Complete Warrior in the hopes of some options, but all it had was a bunch of prestige classes.

It also has the Dash feat, for another +5 to your speed. It also has the Ranged Pin feat, which would allow you to stop fleeing enemies by throwing an axe & hooking them to a wall or tree. It has the Hammer's Edge feat, which has a lot of prerequisites, but might be worth it since it knocks people prone without all the annoying tripping mechanics. It also comes with no size limits, so if you hit a dragon's/giant's toe with both your weapons, it might fall.

In Complete Adventurer, you can use Brutal Throw, so your thrown axes do more damage. It also has the Dive For Cover feat to get re-rolls to Reflex saves. That feat makes you go prone for the re-roll, but if you have the Prone Attack feat from Complete Warrior, you're fine.

The bottom line for a Knight is that you really should use HeroForge or something to create the class at level 20, so you can see your feats and class benefits in full. Determine what it takes to progress to a very effective place.

 

[Runestar]

Get rid of EWP in the very least - +1 average damage is not worth wasting a feat on.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Lots of good advice. I think one issue is that some of the players are inexperienced and not used to tactical thinking. Another is that I'm usually a DM and encourage my players to try stunting and cool manuevers, while my new DM is a little more by the book.

Here's my build...

Human 8th Level Knight
Fights with bastard sword+1 and spiked heavy shield of bashing +1
Str: 16, Con: 16, Dex: 10, Int: 13, Wis: 10, Cha: 15
Maxed out Intimidate

Feats (* indicates homebrew):
[human]Son of Hyerdahl* (+1 AC vs. giants, speak Giant, Survival= class skill)
Man Among Giants (+2 fear saves, reduce penalty to resist intimidate/intimidate larger creatures by level)
Power Attack
Shield Specialization (replaces mounted combat bonus feat of knight class)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Improved Shield Bash
Agile Shield Fighter

Class Features:
Knight’s Challenge (6/day)
*Fighting Challenge: CR = 6; +2 attack, damage, Will saves vs. target for 7 rounds
*Test of Mettle: CR = 6, Int = 5, 100’; Will save DC 16; must attack me until attacked by other or 7 rounds
*Call to Battle: Ally retests failed save vs. fear with +2 bonus
Shield Block: +1 shield AC vs. single foe
Bulwark of Defense: Foe beginning w/in threatened area treats as difficult terrain
Armor Mastery: Ignore speed penalty for medium armor
Vigilant Defender: +8 Tumble DC for foes to move thru my space/threatened area
Shield Ally: Immediate; absorb half damage to adjacent ally from ranged/melee attacks

Do you fight Giants much?

What magic items did you buy?
Cloak of resistance? (boost Save)
Ring of Protection (bnoost touch AC)