When did I stop being WotC's target audience?

I think Cadfan was right when he said the anti and pro 4e sides will never meet.

When I opened the 3e PHB, the "roleplaying" notes are at the BACK of the PHB after all the crunch whereas the 4e PHB, the book actually makes a player THINK about how their character would respond.

I mean, I thought roleplaying was that if faced with situation Z, characters A, B anc C would respond differently based on how the characters were portrayed.

4e is the only version of the PHB that even pays lip service to this roleplaying, yet apparently, this ISN"T considered role-playing?

Colour me confused....
 

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I wasn't the one who brought up the comparison in the first place.

But for the record, no I don't think it's a good comparison, I was jut trying to work with the comparison given to me. The comparison is invalid because cars are something that physically wear out over time, unless you put a good deal of work into them. They require maintenance over time. OD&D is just as playable now as it was 30 years ago.

Actually, I would agree that by modern standards, OD&D is a crappy RPG. Community standards have changed, but just like the Model T with its hobbyists, the game still has its fans and has a life.
 

If this is your position, I find it pretty strange that you are using this statement to defend 3e over 4e. 3e was very limiting on what you could play and how you could play it because of the things they tied into the basic system.

First, though, to be fair, the 3e PHB had 10 classes and the 4e PHB has 8. If you're trying to compare 4e now to 3e at the end of its run, well, that's a pretty skewed way to go about things. Wait 8 years, then compare. Those 10 classes in 3e had a very limited range of options (do I want my fighter to have a longsword and focus or a greataxe and power attack?). Both games are built to expand through future products, its the business model. New options for existing classes, new classes, new pretige/paragon paths, etc.

In 3E, it was easy to multiclass and rather expected that you would. I already mentioned Dragon magazine's series of articles building about fifty different "classes" simply by mixing the core 10. In ten years of playing 3/3.5, I used non-core classes a total of twice, both on the same character.

That said, 3e attempted to pigeonhole characters pretty strongly. All fighters pretty much looked the same.

That's simply not the case. Even if you stayed pure fighter, which IME only NPCs ever did, you quickly became very good at whatever your specialization may be -- or you quickly became very flexible in a variety of situations.

One might trip, another cleave, but they had the same pitiful skills and none of them could effectively utilize the other skill based systems like craft. You couldn't make the character you wanted, unless you could justify any non adventuring details mechanically. A fighter/blacksmith? How you going to pull that off without making a subpar fighter? You had to do it by not actually taking fighter levels, you had to dip in something else for skill points, never mind your concept is not rogueish at all.

How many ranks in Craft do you need to be a competent blacksmith? An Int of 10 gives a 1st level 3E fighter 8 skill points. Put 4 of those in Craft (which is a class skill) and you've got a perfectly good blacksmith, with 2 more each for Jump and Swim.

I'll happily agree that 3E fighters could use more skill points -- but you didn't have to make a sub-par fighter just to make him a blacksmith.

Spellcaster multiclassing was awful and severely limited what you could do and how far you could do it.

I've acknowledged this already. That was a design flaw, not a philosophical one.

Class doesn't define character and character doesn't have to be represented mechanically (although its easy to do so if your group desires). Class represents the skill/powerset that a character uses while adventuring. Right now, class choice is limited, just as it was at the beginning of 3e.

Except it wasn't, that's my whole point. The reason I came back to D&D with the release of 3.0, after a decade of being a HERO-only player[1], was because you could finally use D&D to build a wide variety of characters with nothing more than the PHB.

I dunno, maybe there's some super-wifty piece of game mechanic I'm just not seeing for all the neon lights and tiefling horns ... but what I've seen of 4E character building sure doesn't look flexible to me.

-The Gneech :cool:

[1] And no, I don't want to go back to HERO, for reasons that aren't worth ranting about here. Suffice to say it's also suffered over the years.
 

And so has D&D, since at least 2nd Edition, with its book on playing monstrous humanoids. Then we have 3e with its Savage Species, as well as books like Races of the Dragon.

Those are not, in any way, shape, or form, the PHB.

And for that matter, I understand why there still aren't orcs, goblins, and trolls in the PHB.
 

My conclusion that WOTC is not fully satisfied with the launch of 4e is, I think, clearly my own conclusion.

Based on what, though? The fact that Rob Heinsoo stepped down from his managing position? Suggesting that ignores the context of his decision: he was spending more time managing things than actually writing, and he wanted to spend more time writing.

Mike Mearls posted that by August, they had smashed their sales expectations for the entire 2008 year for 4th Edition, which directly contradicts the idea that they aren't fully satisfied with the launch. In two months, with a handful of products, they beat their sales expectations that were predicated on another 4 months of sales, along with another half-dozen products. Any company in the world would kill to do that.
 

OD&D is just as playable now as it was 30 years ago.

Until you lose your books. Sure, you can get replacement on eBay and the like; but that makes you a collector. ;)

I am not entirely unsympathetic to those who play 4e. I switched from 1e to 3e for two reasons. First, 3e inspired me to create. Second, as my campaigns tend to be atypical by nature, I thought running weird games AND using out-of-print rules might have been a stretch.
 



Mike Mearls posted that by August, they had smashed their sales expectations for the entire 2008 year for 4th Edition, which directly contradicts the idea that they aren't fully satisfied with the launch. In two months, with a handful of products, they beat their sales expectations that were predicated on another 4 months of sales, along with another half-dozen products. Any company in the world would kill to do that.


Golden Gate Bridge for sale..... starting bids will begin in a moment.
 


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