When did I stop being WotC's target audience?

[Mallus]

And, apparently, you never will understand, but the over consolidation of skills and sacrificing of skill rank purchase is deal breaker for many people and, one of the leading reasons why 8 groups I know won't touch 4e.

Aren't skills 'over-consolidated' in 3e? Rope Use (oh red-headed stepchilde of D&D skills) covers everything from a rodeo cowboy tying a lasso to rigging a tall ship. Diplomacy covers everything from a slick confidence man ingratiating himself to a mark to an Imperial courtier ingratiating himself to the court. Decipher Script lets you decipher any script, at all.

Skills in D&D have always been big, catchall categories that made 'fine-tuning' difficult, unless the player voluntarily limits themselves; using their skills in fewer circumstances than the rules state they would apply. Which, of course, is exactly how you fine-tune a PC's skills in 4e...

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

It's about having the abiity to fine tune their vision of the character based upon the character's background and organic growth. 4e's over consolidated skills and automatic level bonuses is an impediment to this approach.

I don't think you are giving the 4E skill system a fair shake. It's definately different than what you are used to, but in many ways it can be used to achieve the goals you have in mind for your PC. See my post above for ways that I, as DM, would help a player incorporate the use of haikus into the system. I don't need a Perform (haiku) skill to make it useful and meaningful. Nor do I need skill point granularity to make a robust and interesting skill system. Most players I have met don't have 5 ranks in "Perform (Haiku)" on their 8th level Fighter becuase they have fine-tuned it to that point. They have that number of ranks because they are working within the confines of the 3E skill system. What they really want is for the performance of haikus to be important to their PC for some reason and by working together with them to achieve their haiku-spouting goals I believe I can provide them with a more satisfying experience in 4E than 3E.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

And, apparently, you never will understand, but the over consolidation of skills and sacrficing of skill rank purchase is deal breaker for many people and, one of the leading reasons why 8 groups I know won't touch 4e.

Had 4e kept the diversification of skills (although, I doubt anyone would miss use rope, but may be wrong), skill rank purchases (giving some classes more skill points per level) and used the 4e skill challenge (or the 3e version in UA), they would have been happy. For these players, its about better reflecting the character as they envision it. They don't care if they have to sacrafice keeping more commonly used skills maxed out to put points into other skills that may rarely come up as it's not abut "gaming" the system. It's about having the abiity to fine tune their vision of the character based upon the character's background and organic growth. 4e's over consolidated skills and automatic level bonuses is an impediment to this approach.

I don't see why D&D should spend this much effort trying to please people who would probably be happier playing GURPS or HERO.

 

[Greg K]

I don't think you are giving the 4E skill system a fair shake. It's definately different than what you are used to, but in many ways it can be used to achieve the goals you have in mind for your PC..

I have played many different games with different skill systems. I will no longer play games with automatic skill increases based on level or very consolidated skill lists. I find them unsatisfying.

See my post above for ways that I, as DM, would help a player incorporate the use of haikus into the system. I don't need a Perform (haiku) skill to make it useful and meaningful.

I had . I consider it using attribute checks even with an arbitrary small modifier unsatisfying and would avoid such a game.

Most players I have met don't have 5 ranks in "Perform (Haiku)" on their 8th level Fighter becuase they have fine-tuned it to that point. They have that number of ranks because they are working within the confines of the 3E skill system.

Then, they don't view their character as seeking out haiku (or poetry) in his or her travels to become the best haiku (or poetry) master. However, if haiku (or poetry in genral) is appropriate for the campaign setting I and other players are going to want some means of representing just how good the character is and the player to increase ranks as appropriate (and the DM having situations in the travels where such skill may be useful).

 

[Mallus]

I have played many different games with different skill systems.

Out of curiosity, which ones do you like?

For the record, I currently prefer systems with small lists of broadly applied skills (and when needed, simple ability checks) like 4e.

 

[Greg K]

Aren't skills 'over-consolidated' in 3e? Rope Use (oh red-headed stepchilde of D&D skills) covers everything from a rodeo cowboy tying a lasso to rigging a tall ship.

You missed where I said this is one skill that they probably mind going away.

Diplomacy covers everything from a slick confidence man ingratiating himself to a mark to an Imperial courtier ingratiating himself to the court.

I might actually use bluff if the confidence man is not sincere.

Decipher Script lets you decipher any script, at all.

Skills in D&D have always been big, catchall categories that made 'fine-tuning' difficult, unless the player voluntarily limits themselves; using their skills in fewer circumstances than the rules state they would apply. Which, of course, is exactly how you fine-tune a PC's skills in 4e

First, we introduced new some skills and/or treated some skills like Perform or Knoweldge in that you chose a specialty. Second, the consolidation in 3e is not nearly to the degree of 4e.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I have played many different games with different skill systems. I will no longer play games with automatic skill increases based on level or very consolidated skill lists. I find them unsatisfying.

What I don't see is the need for D&D to be this sort of game. I've played games with these sort of skill systems in Rolemaster(about a year and a half), and arguably I'd call Vampire/WoD(played for 5 years) this sort of game. Given my experiences with Rolemaster and WoD, and having owned both Champions and Hero and read them well enough to be familiar, I don't think 3E did a good job with this sort of skill system. It tried to, but it didn't really work well in game.

D&D has always been the straightforward, easy to play action adventure RPG. Trying to be everything to everybody was 3E's experiment, and one they've thankfully decided to abandon.

RPG players who want something different than D&D are going to have to get used to playing non-D&D games again, or playing 3E some more.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Then, they don't view their character as seeking out haiku (or poetry) in his or her travels to become the best haiku (or poetry) master. However, if haiku (or poetry in genral) is appropriate for the campaign setting I and other players are going to want some means of representing just how good the character is and the player to increase ranks as appropriate (and the DM having situations in the travels where such skill may be useful).

They may view their character seeking to become a haiku master. But if they play a straight Fighter in 3E they can't. Only a class with Perform as a class skill can accomplish that.

Another question: Why are automatically increasing skill points a deal-breaker for you when all 3E classes have automatically increasing BABs and saves? Why does every fighter excel at fighting at the exact same rate?

Other systems work all character talents into a rank system and give better granularity than 3E. So why would you choose a system that constrains you to advance automatically in some of your talents (fighting, avoiding danger) while making you spend skill resource points on other talents, while choosing other talents outright (feats)? Even Earthdawn leaves most things to Ranks (excluding only passive defenses).

 

[Tian Zi]

If you enjoy tactical miniature games with a fantasy element, 4E seems to be the system for you.

Really? I thought that was DDM Skirmish, the game they just cancelled. Hmmm, I must have bought the wrong rulebooks and be playing with the wrong people.

 

[Henry]

Then, they don't view their character as seeking out haiku (or poetry) in his or her travels to become the best haiku (or poetry) master. However, if haiku (or poetry in general) is appropriate for the campaign setting I and other players are going to want some means of representing just how good the character is and the player to increase ranks as appropriate (and the DM having situations in the travels where such skill may be useful).

I like what Rel was thinking of doing with his proposed 4E game; just extending the skill system to skills that the PCs specifically want so that they can have that customization. In his case, his original plan was,

Question 1: What did your Character do before taking up adventuring?
Question 2: What does your character do when he's not adventuring?

So 4E can have those former Blacksmiths who take up basketweaving in their off-hours, or Sailor/aspiring coin collectors who check the dragon's hoard for numismatic value.