Cloudkill... Really?

[Mathew_Freeman]

I'm just thinking of the terrifying possibilities of using this on a battlefield, with thousands of troops on each side. An 11 x 11 square is just huge, and is going to cause an awful lot of death...

 

[Plane Sailing]

Also, one thing I realized: I think some of your issue is the smoothing of the power curve over the course of the game. Yes, the spell is called "Cloudkill" - this doesn't mean it needs to instantly kill everything it touches, even as a 19th level spell.

The key point is that Cloudkill (19th) is no better than Stinking Cloud (5th) at hurting foes, and it is tactically and strategically less useful in almost all circumstances.

This doesn't make sense.

Higher level powers should be better than lower level powers. Giant area and reduced movement capability doesn't make this better.

 

[Prism]

Higher level powers should be better than lower level powers. Giant area and reduced movement capability doesn't make this better.

you'd think but it doesn't seem that the designers worried too much about it. i would say that most classes have a 5th or 9th daily that is better than many would be upgrades until 29th. I'm getting used to it

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

you'd think but it doesn't seem that the designers worried too much about it. i would say that most classes have a 5th or 9th daily that is better than many would be upgrades until 29th. I'm getting used to it

One thing to consider in every case is: Do you gain something (what?) if you have access to the same power twice? I think this thoughts also went into power balancing.

Though I will not claim that it works for Cloudkill. I'd have to see it in play. It looks a little like it might be most useful for the kind of Wizard that likes to be at the front of the battle (you know, the guy with Thundering Wave and stuff like that?).

 

[MrMyth]

The key point is that Cloudkill (19th) is no better than Stinking Cloud (5th) at hurting foes, and it is tactically and strategically less useful in almost all circumstances.

This doesn't make sense.

Higher level powers should be better than lower level powers. Giant area and reduced movement capability doesn't make this better.

I continue to be confused at the insistance that an enormous area is not useful. Sure, Cloudkill does the same damage as Stinking Cloud... except it does twice as much damage, since it will be easily hitting twice as many enemies. It is slower moving, but the sheer size makes it extremely difficult to escape from.

It is tactically and strategically amazing for battlefield control. I guarantee, at least once a day you will be in a fight ideal for dropping it on a vast array of enemies. If you are specifically prepared to use it - PCs have some Poison Resist, you have items/feats/abilities to help avoid hurting your allies, etc - then you can make even more effective use of it.

Compare Greater Ice Storm to Ice Storm. Effects are identical. Greater Ice Storm deals an extra 2d8 damage - and is Burst 5 instead of Burst 3. In return, it is a level 29 spell instead of a level 9 spell. Why the big jump, despite the rather small damage boost? Because of the boost in size, and how powerful that is on the battlefield.

No one is going to consider Greater Ice Storm 'not a good spell' because it is only 2d8 damage higher than Ice Storm. They might not take it because of the awesomeness of Legion's Hold - but Greater Ice Storm is still an extremely powerful spell because of being a powerful control spell that hits an enormous area.

Cloudkill is an extremely powerful spell because of being a very high damage spell that hits an enormous area. Stinking Cloud is a very high damage spell that hits a moderate area - and, as such, is lower level.

If you really can't see the advantages to large area effect spells, I'm not sure I'll be able to convince you that Cloudkill is worth it - but honestly, I doubt I'll be able to convince you of anything related to the wizard class, where the size of their attacks is one of the greatest strengths of the class.

 

[MrMyth]

Also, one thing to keep in mind is that by 19th level, you also have more ways to effectively move enemies around, and shove them back into the Cloudkill even once they get out, or ways to keep enemies from escaping.

Consider some of the Encounter Powers you are getting at those levels:
Level 13: Thunderlance, a Close Blast 5 that pushes 4.
Level 13: Mesmeric Hold, which can immobilize up to 3 enemies.
Level 17: Crushing Titan's Fist, which can immobilize those it hits, and provides extreme movement reduction for those it does not.

Honestly, Stinking Cloud is still good - and among the most powerful of the low-level wizard's powers - but Cloudkill is both a solid upgrade and a very effective spell for its level.