Cloudkill... Really?

[MrMyth]

Okay, I admit I didn't realize a zone got to apply your implement bonus every round. I'll buy that. I don't accept that 7.25 value, though; you either deal ~29 damage or 14 damage, depending on your attack roll.

I'm basically taking the averages here. Yes, it is 29 damage or 14 damage, but assuming a 50% chance to hit, that is an average of 22 damage.

Given... but fireball should be comparable to Stinking Cloud -- not Cloudkill!

But again - it isn't comparable to Cloudkill. It hits less enemies for 2/3 the damage, assuming you can't hit the enemies additional times with Cloudkill (which, generally, you can.) Cloudkill is superior in several ways - not enough to make Fireball an irrelevant spell, but enough to clearly be several classes above it.

Now, I admit that the real relevant point you bring up is how good Stinking Cloud is (and it is pretty darn good). But the difference in area of effect is really a big deal, and that seems to be what you aren't weighting heavily enough. Stinking Cloud covers 25 squares; Cloudkill hits, what, 121 squares? Yes, it adds some hindrance if the enemies are intermixed in your group, but since you get to choose when you cast it, the benefits of the extra size will greatly outweigh any negatives.

Well, 35 is kind of a bogus number there. It's either 45 damage or 21 damage, depending on the attack roll.

Again, I'm going by average damage based on a 50% chance of hitting, simply for ease of comparison.

And again - Acid Wave, a spell of equal level to Cloudkill should be comparable to it. Hitting less enemies for more damage (assuming no potential for a second hit from Cloudkill) seems a fair trade-off.

I'm not underestimating the burst size; what I'm saying is that Stinking Cloud is (A) easier to fit into the average battle without poisoning allies; (B) nearly as good at sticking to your enemies, via moving faster; and (C) deals exactly the same damage.

If you drop Cloudkill at the start of a battle, you are almost guaranteed to hit the entire group of opponents. Stinking Cloud, you will likely hit half of them. I mean, you are free to think that having an 11 x 11 area of effect is not very helpful, but if that is your opinion, I don't think anyone will be able to change your opinion in this matter. That sort of area is enormous on the field, and very powerful.

Now, the one good point you do raise is that Stinking Cloud itself is quite good for its level. But by level 19, getting the extra coverage from Cloudkill's size is a very big benefit, and what makes it so fearsome on the field.

But it's not significantly better than keeping old Stinky. Maybe it's true that Stinking Cloud scales very nicely with level -- a 19th level spell ought to be better than a 5th level spell cast by a 19th level wizard!

And, again, it is, due to the size. Since you don't consider the size a benefit, there really isn't any way to convince you that Cloudkill is better, so I'm content to let the disagreement end there.

 

[MrMyth]

Also, one thing I realized: I think some of your issue is the smoothing of the power curve over the course of the game. Yes, the spell is called "Cloudkill" - this doesn't mean it needs to instantly kill everything it touches, even as a 19th level spell.

Damage, in general, doesn't scale as exponentially as it used to. It goes up both through powers being stronger and through other minor numbers going up (bonuses from feats, stats, equipment, etc.) Compared to the hundred or thousand-plus damage spells of 3.5, sure, it seems weak. But having damage scale in such a fashion made for a lot of problematic situations.

As long as it is an effective spell in the scope of the game, it doesn't need to do 'all the damage' in order to feel epic in scope. An effect that blankets so much of the field, in 4E, is a pretty impressive effect.

Compare how other classes effects scale:
Fighter Level 5 Daily: Dazing Blow
-Reliable, Str vs AC, 3[W]+Str and Immobilized (save ends)

Fighter Level 19 Daily: Reaving Strike
-Reliable, Str vs AC, 5[W]+Str and Push 1 Square.

The ability gains 2[W], and has an effect that most would consider weaker. That doesn't make it useless - it just means the power curve is a much more linear progression, and as long as the power is decent in relation to its place in the game, that is all that matters.

Thus far, I can't imagine Cloudkill not being a useful tool. I haven't played any 19th level Wizards myself, so I can't give any input from experience, which will be the real test - but it certainly looks like it will be effective in many encounters at that level. That is really all it needs to do.

 

[yesnomu]

I can't really comment on 4e, but in 3e it's main use is as an army killer, since it wipes out the low level sorts who make up the majority of armies. It isn't a spell for taking down BBEGs or any level equivalent monsters.

You're kidding, right? Cloudkill used to be a fantastic BBEG killer, because it did automatic Con damage. Stick the BBEG in a forcecage or a Wall of Force shaped like a box, and sit back and watch them die.

To be fair, there were upteen-thousand ways to one-shot BBEGs with spells in 3.5, but Cloudkill used to be much, much better. The mighty have fallen pretty hard here.

I just got Stinking Cloud in my 4e game, and I did a double take at Cloudkill when looking at the higher-level spells. A bigger area and the ability to make ranged attacks at the bad guys does not make up for a difference in 14 levels! It ought to do at least 2d10, and be moveable as part of the sustain minor, like Mord's Sword.

Of course, a lot of high level Wizard powers are pretty disappointing, but there are enough Legion's Holds/Mass Flys/Prismatic Sprays left that Cloudkill just seems useless.

 

[Victim]

Also, one thing I realized: I think some of your issue is the smoothing of the power curve over the course of the game. Yes, the spell is called "Cloudkill" - this doesn't mean it needs to instantly kill everything it touches, even as a 19th level spell.

Damage, in general, doesn't scale as exponentially as it used to. It goes up both through powers being stronger and through other minor numbers going up (bonuses from feats, stats, equipment, etc.) Compared to the hundred or thousand-plus damage spells of 3.5, sure, it seems weak. But having damage scale in such a fashion made for a lot of problematic situations.

As long as it is an effective spell in the scope of the game, it doesn't need to do 'all the damage' in order to feel epic in scope. An effect that blankets so much of the field, in 4E, is a pretty impressive effect.

Compare how other classes effects scale:
Fighter Level 5 Daily: Dazing Blow
-Reliable, Str vs AC, 3[W]+Str and Immobilized (save ends)

Fighter Level 19 Daily: Reaving Strike
-Reliable, Str vs AC, 5[W]+Str and Push 1 Square.

The ability gains 2[W], and has an effect that most would consider weaker. That doesn't make it useless - it just means the power curve is a much more linear progression, and as long as the power is decent in relation to its place in the game, that is all that matters.

Thus far, I can't imagine Cloudkill not being a useful tool. I haven't played any 19th level Wizards myself, so I can't give any input from experience, which will be the real test - but it certainly looks like it will be effective in many encounters at that level. That is really all it needs to do.

Yeah, some of the high level dailies aren't very good. Like Cloudkill. I mean, look at Rain of Steel (level 5 fighter stance) versus the similar Unyeilding Avalanche. Same damage, sure. Except that the level 15 has regeneration, AC, saves, and slows enemies.

Having choices for a given level of powers that seem clearly bad - like Cloudkill and Reaving Strike (I'd go back and pick one of the level 15 fighter dailies before I picked that) - seems like a problem.

 

[Rackhir]

You're kidding, right? Cloudkill used to be a fantastic BBEG killer, because it did automatic Con damage. Stick the BBEG in a forcecage or a Wall of Force shaped like a box, and sit back and watch them die.

"The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails."

It's WALL of Force, not cube or sphere of force. So that doesn't work. Forcecage would, assuming you had a BBEG who was small enough to fit in the 10'x10' version, wasn't immune to poison, incapable of casting "Disintegrate" and who had no teleportation or dimentional travel abilities. At lvl 13+, odds are a BBEG is going to have at least one, if not more of the counters to this.

You could Dimensional Anchor the BBEG as well, which at least negates the teleportantion/plane shift, but then you're talking the BBEG standing around long enough for you to get off 1 seventh, 1 fifth and a 4th lvl spells. None of which you can probably quicken. Any BBEG stupid enough to stand there while you do this over the course of 3 rounds, is stupid enough to deserve to die from this.

While it's not useless against BBEGs, it takes a very cooperative BBEG to get crushed by it.

 

[MerricB]

In AD&D, Cloudkill had no effect on creatures with more than 6 HD.
4+1 hit dice or fewer? Slain instantly, no save.
In between? You got a save.

It was a minion-killer, back then.

Cheers!

 

[yesnomu]

"The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10- foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails."

It's WALL of Force, not cube or sphere of force. So that doesn't work. Forcecage would, assuming you had a BBEG who was small enough to fit in the 10'x10' version, wasn't immune to poison, incapable of casting "Disintegrate" and who had no teleportation or dimentional travel abilities. At lvl 13+, odds are a BBEG is going to have at least one, if not more of the counters to this.

You could Dimensional Anchor the BBEG as well, which at least negates the teleportantion/plane shift, but then you're talking the BBEG standing around long enough for you to get off 1 seventh, 1 fifth and a 4th lvl spells. None of which you can probably quicken. Any BBEG stupid enough to stand there while you do this over the course of 3 rounds, is stupid enough to deserve to die from this.

While it's not useless against BBEGs, it takes a very cooperative BBEG to get crushed by it.

Well, that's why everyone in the party should play wizards with Celerity. Or at least wizards or druids wildshaped to Legendary Eagles. And rods of quicken aren't that expensive.

But yeah, good catch about the wall of force. I could have sworn I saw something that let you do that, though. Maybe a Shape Spell'd WoF?

 

[Turtlejay]

I think maybe we need to think about wizards being controllers as more than "I can hit 10 guys at once" to "I create havoc with the plans of my enemies"

Dropping an 11x11x11 cube of auto damage into a battlefield is going to severely hamper tactical thinking on the part of your enemies. Your team, on the other hand, should be prepared for this tactic and benefit from the scattering/mass exodus. With planning this can be pretty cool.

I don't know if it is better or worse in practice than a 19th level daily, I just think. . .wow. That is a huge area. That alone is worth something.

Jay

 

[Rackhir]

Well, that's why everyone in the party should play wizards with Celerity. Or at least wizards or druids wildshaped to Legendary Eagles. And rods of quicken aren't that expensive.

But yeah, good catch about the wall of force. I could have sworn I saw something that let you do that, though. Maybe a Shape Spell'd WoF?

A Staff of Power does do a hemispherical WoF, but around the user.

You could do other shapes in previous editions I'm pretty sure.

 

[roguerouge]

Sure, I see that. It just doesn't say 'cloud' much when it's transparent.

So it's silent but (not so) deadly?