I'm going to run a 1e game

[SableWyvern]

After some consideration, I've decided I really like this. It avoids the weird situation where someone who wins initiative will have to wait until a spellcaster starts before attacking.

If you're using action declaration, that shouldn't be a problem -- if you declare a spell-casting action, then you are assumed to begin casting at the very beginning of the round. Initiative only affects when you finish casting, not when you begin.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread with another quick rules question. This one's on casting times.

I have a cleric, and he's casting a 7-segment spell.

After initiative, we determine that I am acting on segment 6.

Which of the following happens?

(1) Assuming I don't get hit, I finish my spell up at the end of the round in a 'phantom' 13th segment and act normally next round; or

(2) My casting "rolls over" into the next round after segment 10, and I don't finish casting until segment 3 of next round - making it possible I'll get hit if we roll low on our initiative die.


If it's Option 2, what's my status in that next round? Do I still get to act in it? What if my party is acting on segment 2? Do I just act on Segment 4 after I'm done, or should I add 3+2 and act on Segment 5?

Moreso - say I'm casting a full round spell. I am guessing I should read that as a 10-segment casting time?

Thanks - I'm still trying to wrap my brain around 1e initiative.

-O

Before we get to the finer rules for your example did you win or lose initiative?

If you won initiative, then your spell goes off in the first round before you are attacked on segment 7.

If you lost initiative then your opponents would have a chance to attack you on segment s 1-6 depending on the value of thier die roll.

If you are struck before segment 7 your spell is lost. Otherwise it goes off in segment 7 and thats it.

The only spells that would be delayed until the following round would be ones with a full round of casting time or more.

Winning initiative counts more than anything. Segments only become important if you lose

 

[Chainsaw]

An AD&D round is 60 seconds long and divided into 10 six second segments. Every spell that didn't take a round or more to cast was given a casting time in segments.

When initiative was rolled (higher wins on a d6) any attack on a spellcaster would come on a segment indicated by the number on the initiative roll.

For example, Blastum begins casting a spell that takes 3 segments to cast at Gutboy Barrelhouse. They both roll initiative, Blastum gets a 1 and Gutboy gets a 5. Gutboy wins initiative and gets to attack Blastum first.
The attack comes on the 1st segment because of Blastum's bad roll. If Gutboy hits Blastum before the 3rd segment of the round is over then Blastum's spell is ruined.

Considering the fact that spellcasters had to announce what spell was being cast in a given round BEFORE initiative was rolled and initiative was rolled every round, and then it could be disrupted very easily, the casters of past editions do not seem so overpowered after all.

In 3E you had to give up your own action to have a hope of disrupting an enemy spell.

In 4E there is no point in disrupting a spell......they don't do anything.

I have to admit that the initiative rules are not totally clear to me either. Even this example leaves me a little puzzled. The way I read it, Blastum and Gutboy both roll a d6. The higher roll wins (5 beating 1), allowing the roller to act first. Within the 10-segment sequence, does the winner then act on segment 1 because that's the first segment or because that's what the loser happened to roll this time? Two examples would be nice - maybe one plain vanilla example with two fighters, then one where there's a caster facing delays because of a spell. Also, the way I understand it, weapon speed doesn't affect initiative except to break a tie, right? Seems like I also read a rule that if a weapon has a low enough relative weapon speed, then the combatant can attack twice with it against the slower combatant (regardless of two-weapon fighting or class-granted multiple attacks). Any help would be great!

 

[Chainsaw]

Before we get to the finer rules for your example did you win or lose initiative?

If you won initiative, then your spell goes off in the first round before you are attacked on segment 7.

If you lost initiative then your opponents would have a chance to attack you on segment s 1-6 depending on the value of thier die roll.

If you are struck before segment 7 your spell is lost. Otherwise it goes off in segment 7 and thats it.

The only spells that would be delayed until the following round would be ones with a full round of casting time or more.

Winning initiative counts more than anything. Segments only become important if you lose

This helps, but I'd still enjoy seeing a couple more examples of vanilla situations to help me frame up the dicier ones.

 

[T. Foster]

Hey ExploderWizard,

You've got the concept right but the actual details backwards: if the spell-caster's side loses initiative then anyone attacking him automatically gets a chance to interrupt the spell, regardless of casting time or the numbers rolled (e.g. the mage is casting a 3 segment spell, his side rolls a 4 and is beaten by the other side rolling a 6 -- the winning side automatically gets a chance to disrupt the spell); it's only if the spell-caster's side wins initiative that you check to see if the opponents might have a chance of disrupting the spell anyway (e.g. if the mage is casting a 3 segment spell and his side wins initiative the opponents may still be able to disrupt the spell if the winning side's initiative roll was a 1, 2, or 3).

Note that this rule only applies if the enemies begin the round not already in melee with the spell-caster. If they are already engaged then (BTB) you use a different rule instead -- the one where the weapon speed factor is subtracted from the losing side's initiative die roll and the absolute value of that number is compared to the casting time. Yeah, it's ugly.

 

[MerricB]

This helps, but I'd still enjoy seeing a couple more examples of vanilla situations to help me frame up the dicier ones.

Quite frankly, the AD&D 1st edition rules as written for spellcasting initiative don't make sense and contradict each other. Anything you use will be a house rule.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

(e.g. if the mage is casting a 3 segment spell and his side wins initiative the opponents may still be able to disrupt the spell if the winning side's initiative roll was a 1, 2, or 3).

It gets more complicated with missile weapons, where the Dex check actually affects the initiative roll (one of the few times it does).

Cheers!

 

[Chainsaw]

Quite frankly, the AD&D 1st edition rules as written for spellcasting initiative don't make sense and contradict each other. Anything you use will be a house rule.

Cheers!

Argh!!!

Maybe I will just do d6 +dex mod+weapon speed/casting time. Of course, now that I think about it, that assumes weapon speed/casting time are even comparable mechanically. Probably not the case, eh?

 

[MerricB]

Argh!!!

Maybe I will just do d6 +dex mod+weapon speed/casting time. Of course, now that I think about it, that assumes weapon speed/casting time are even comparable mechanically. Probably not the case, eh?

Not really.

Honestly, if a wizard is in melee, for all but the shortest spells they're likely to be struck by a weapon before they can finish casting. They're more likely to be able to cast before ranged fire. You need to ask yourself if you actually want magic-users to be able to cast spells in melee or not.

As I recall, Gary actually was using a d10 system in his own game...

An inspired-by-AD&D system that would be slightly easier to work would be as follows:

* Roll 1d6 for initiative for both sides.
* The higher initiative roll resolves all of their melee/ranged attacks first.
* If the losing die roll >= the casting time of the spells, then the winning side gets to cast their spells before they get struck.
* The lower initiative roll resolves their melee & ranged attacks
* The winning side resolves any remaining spells.
* The losing side resolves all their spells.

On the case of a tie in initiative, the lower weapon speed strikes first.
On the case of charging, the greater weapon length strikes first.
You may not fire a ranged weapon if someone is threatening you in melee.

I might adjust the initiative of a charging character by their speed/distance ratio (so someone charging to the extent of their speed would strike last against spellcasters/missile combatants because they spend most of their round charging).

Cheers!

 

[T. Foster]

It gets more complicated with missile weapons, where the Dex check actually affects the initiative roll (one of the few times it does).

Cheers!

In this case I go with the workaround somebody came up with in one of the (many, many) discussions of this topic at DF or K&K: the Dex adjustment matters as far as turning a losing roll into a winning roll, but not as far as making you "lose by less." Otherwise it just becomes too much of a mess to handle quickly and maintain the proper pace of the game.

So, if on one side you've got a spell-caster casting a 3 segment spell and on the other you've got an archer with Dex 17 (+2 reaction bonus), if the mage's side rolls a 4 and the archer's side a 3 the archer's +2 adjusts his roll to a 5 meaning he gets a chance to disrupt the mage's spell even though the rest of his side doesn't (since the mage's roll of 4 is higher than his casting time of 3). However, if the mage's side rolled a 4 and the archer's side rolled a 1, the adjustment takes that to 3, which still loses, and the archer doesn't get a chance to interrupt the spell (since the roll of 4 is still greater than the casting time of 3).