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Evolution of the Fighter

Options in and out of combat, not just character build options.

Here are my observations from having played a warblade, as compared to my prior experiences of having run a fighter.

OH, So you are playing the numbers game instead of playing D&D. Gotcha.

This is what the sheet has listed that a fighter can do, versus what he can really do.

So you think because a fighter doesn't have pick-pockets on his sheet he wasn't able to try to do so?

That isn't a game flaw, but a player and DM flaw.

Sure the fighter doesn't get any bonus from trying, and may even get penalties, but he didn't get told he cannot do so just because it wasn't written on his sheet.


3) Higher mobility. The typical fighter wears fullplate

No he doesn't unless he is an idiot. Fullplate is tactically the worst armor to wear. The limited mobility getting to places is the first problem. Taking it off to move around, means you have to have enough time to put it on before fighting, or everyone else is carrying this fighter around to get from battle to battle.

I don't play the min-maxing game, so if that is all the options mean that a fighter "lacked" then I got nothing to help you with.

The fighter now has less options because of the power system that defines what things he can and cannot do versus the more open systems of the past.

All those bonuses to dice mean nothing to the actual characters, and any player getting hung up on them as the options they have is missing 80% of the game. That part that the rules don't have anything for that is your own imagination.

Psionics just suck, but no other class had any kind of drawbacks if you really wanted to play that class.

So your want to play this teleporting fop instead of a fighter, just mean you didn't want to play a fighter. Not that it was deficient in options.

Maybe playing a fighter/mage would have been better.

Gosh the old multi-class system just let you do about anything, versus now where you are what you are, and to deviate you need some special class or PrC to tell you you can try something different.

That just makes me sick, that a book is needed to tell you you can try something.

Give me dual classing over all these PrCs and wannabe multiclassing systems in 4th.

Fighters don't do magic. They don't teleport. That isn't a lack of options, or design flaw, but a part of the fighter. Using teleport as some example seems to video gamey for me to even consider a serious arguement. Like trying to stick Nightcrawler into D&D or something.

Sure when you try to break the mold be making something that wasn't intended to exist in the world, it will break it and not work anymore.

D&D wasn't created to have everyone BAMPF around. That isn't a lack of options but a design and what it was intended to represent. It doesn't mean you can shove any idea into it and it work. If D&D doesn't offer Nightcrawler, then maybe another game would be better suited to it.

You cannot compare a fighter to another melee class, and act like you are comparing two fighters. Their purposes are not the same.

Your warblade fits into a subgenre of the main, so you need to place it into the mixed category it is and compare it to a F/MU as that is what it is.

There are 4 main archtypes of character, and they can be combined to form everything else.
F
C
T
MU

Any class of PrC can be created by combining those 4 mains.
 

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Options in and out of combat, not just character build options.

Here are my observations from having played a warblade, as compared to my prior experiences of having run a fighter.

1) I have probably said this umpteen times, so just bear with me. A decent skill list (balance, diplomacy and tumble!), and enough skill points (4+int mod) to let you invest in a reasonable array of skills.

Fair enough. I, personally, am usually comfortable with Climb, Jump, and then one class or cross-class skill of choice, but maybe I'm easy in that department.

Contrast this with the fighter, where you had to "waste" points just to raise your int to 13 or 14 in order to pick up expertise (since it was a prerequisite feat for quite a number of important feat chains). His skill list stank, and rarely ever saw use. He was basically useless outside of combat.

Somehow, the Ride skill seems to come up a lot in my games. And there's nothing wasted about a couple of cross-class ranks in Survival or Diplomacy. There's no reason he has to be particularly good at something outside of combat, sometimes filling a niche minimally is enough.

Virtually all these problems can be sidestepped by taking a level or two in another class.

2) Lesser reliance on full attack. At higher lvs, the fighter is extremely reliant on using the full-attack action to maintain his damage output.

Yes, and no. If the opponent is moving around and taking standard actions, the fighter still has options. For one, using a bow is a good way to keep full attacks in play. But more importantly, a fighter can do a lot of things to keep up. Powerful Charge is a dandy feat, Combat Reflexes, too. Most other characters are going to be hard-pressed to find room in their build for both, but with a fighter, that's an option.

With full BAB, fighters are also very formidable should they choose to grapple or disarm. Is that tumbling rogue bothering you? Ready to grapple him when he gets close. Also, fighters usually have a good Str, so tripping is an option, too. And if the fall prone, an opponent has to resort to close combat to take advantage of the situation, which is the fighter's strength. Assuming the fighter isn't already a prone-fighting grappler.

Finally, never understestimate the stopping power of a standard action when you have Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Power Critical, and Improved Critical. Most opponents will not actually be eager to exchange blows with you unless they are a giant or something.


3) Higher mobility. The typical fighter wears fullplate, which reduces his base speed to 20ft.

Yes, and no. The typical low level, modest Dex, unusually wealthy fighter without magical armor wears fullplate. In my experience, most mid-level fighters wear +1 or +2 chainmail. Higher level fighters are probably going to switch to mithril plate or mithril chainmail. If they go with mithril chainmail, they retain normal speed.

Also, any kind of movement boost changes the equation considerably. Full plate + boots of speed = freight train.

On the flip side, the warblade has the advantage with the shadow hand teleportation maneuvers (which he can readily access using the martial study feats, since they do not have prereqs).

Fair enough.

4) Versatility. A fighter who goes down the weapon spec tree is locked into his choice forever.

NO. Nononononononononono. Just no.

There is no one more versatile than a fighter. There is absolutely no problem for a fighter to specialize in both greatsword and longbow. There is no reason to even go down the weapon specialization path if you want to be able to pick up anything you find.

Sinking six feats into one weapon choice without a backup plan is an extremely suboptimized fighter. What if you choose bastard sword and your opponent flies? What if you choose morningstar and you need a slashing weapon? What if you get disarmed or some smartass disintegrates your weapon? No, those feats are great for creating your super smackdown, but the bread and butter of a fighter is having some options. If nothing else, take Throw Anything, Point Blank Shot, and Powerful Throw and get a +1 throwing returning greatsword so you at least have something to do.

5) Crappy saves. It used to be that the player controlling the fighter could expect to sit out just about every fight involving some sort of will saves.

Protection from evil solves many problems. Apart from that, there's not much to say, the fighter has one good save, two bad saves, like most classes. I would definitely take Iron Will at some point, and a cloak of resistance is a good thing to have.

At higher levels, there are options. A number of fighter-oriented prestige classes offer a Will boost. And maybe you can purchase a wand of remove enchantment for your rogue friend to carry.

The Warblade has advantages, but I think that sticks out as a strong point of the Warblade rather than a weakness of the Fighter. The rogue is not going to be happy about making a lot of Fortitude saves, either.

6) Adaptive style lets the warblade swap in a new array of maneuvers as a full-round action, allowing him to rapidly tailor his list of maneuvers to best suit any given situation.

Meanwhile, the fighter is left using the same tricks vs every foe he faces, however effective/ineffective it may be. A tripper facing huge+ foes? Tough luck. Sunder master, but facing foes not wielding weapons? Too bad.

I don't consider this a counter-example at all. I hope the "sunder master" would have some versatility, but at the very least, I hope he's carrying a bow or some tanglefoot bags or something.

Fighters have a staggering number of feats, and a well-tailored fighter has something for just about every situation. There are not many characters who can switch between using a bow with Precise Shot to a greatsword and going Power Attack. The fighter can afford to be at the top in one or two categories and still have backup strategies.

7) Iron heart surge. Because being hit with a waves of exhaustion or maze spell really sucks for anybody (especially since they do not allow saves). Pity it does not let you counter an immobilizing effect like hold person, but hey, I am not greedy.:cool:

Sure.

8) The warblade's variety of maneuvers make playing him more fun overall. I don't just move and attack/5-ft and full attack every round. I move, use a swift-action boost, and initiate a cool maneuver.

I would rather not be stuck with a deck of maneuvers and hope I have one that applies to the current situation. To me, the fighter has options and versatility. To me, a "cool maneuver" is a tactical choice that deals with an opponent in an effective manner.


Frankly, if the fighter is doing the same thing around, you are probably not playing the class to its full potential. That would be like playing a wizard and resorting to "I cast fireball" as your solution to all life's problems or playing a rogue and saying "Gosh, undead, I guess I'm out" instead of looking at your options.
 

OH, So you are playing the numbers game instead of playing D&D. Gotcha.

This is what the sheet has listed that a fighter can do, versus what he can really do.

So you think because a fighter doesn't have pick-pockets on his sheet he wasn't able to try to do so?

That isn't a game flaw, but a player and DM flaw.

Sure the fighter doesn't get any bonus from trying, and may even get penalties, but he didn't get told he cannot do so just because it wasn't written on his sheet.

I have absolutely no idea what the heck you are trying to say....
True. There is nothing preventing the fighter from trying to make untrained sleight-of-hand checks, but he is going to fail every time, so why even bother?

It is not the best roleplaying which lets you succeed at a task, but hard cold stats. This is how the game works. How is it a player/DM flaw?
 

Fair enough. I, personally, am usually comfortable with Climb, Jump, and then one class or cross-class skill of choice, but maybe I'm easy in that department.
Yes, you are. ;)

Somehow, the Ride skill seems to come up a lot in my games. And there's nothing wasted about a couple of cross-class ranks in Survival or Diplomacy. There's no reason he has to be particularly good at something outside of combat, sometimes filling a niche minimally is enough.
You can't fill a niche "minimally". 5 ranks in Survival or Diplomacy at level 7 won't cut anything - you will still be a terrible tracker, and you won't convince anyone with your +4 to +6 modifiers to Diplomacy either. A Sorcerer gets your level of skill just by looking good!

Of course one of the biggest problems with cross class is not just from the fighter side, but from the way cross class skills are implemented in 3E, but it hits a fighter still harder then most classes.

Virtually all these problems can be sidestepped by taking a level or two in another class.
With hyperbole: The solution to any fighter problems is by not playing a fighter.

Yes, and no. If the opponent is moving around and taking standard actions, the fighter still has options. For one, using a bow is a good way to keep full attacks in play. But more importantly, a fighter can do a lot of things to keep up. Powerful Charge is a dandy feat, Combat Reflexes, too. Most other characters are going to be hard-pressed to find room in their build for both, but with a fighter, that's an option.
Using a bow requires expending money on a good magical bow and spending resources for a good dexterity. It will give you passable ranged and passable melee attacks, but nothing that will really suffice.

With full BAB, fighters are also very formidable should they choose to grapple or disarm. Is that tumbling rogue bothering you? Ready to grapple him when he gets close. Also, fighters usually have a good Str, so tripping is an option, too. And if the fall prone, an opponent has to resort to close combat to take advantage of the situation, which is the fighter's strength. Assuming the fighter isn't already a prone-fighting grappler.

Finally, never understestimate the stopping power of a standard action when you have Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Power Critical, and Improved Critical. Most opponents will not actually be eager to exchange blows with you unless they are a giant or something.
Unfortunately, way to many enemies beat your Fighter at grappling, tripping, disarming or sundering based on size or used weaponry alone.

Yes, and no. The typical low level, modest Dex, unusually wealthy fighter without magical armor wears fullplate. In my experience, most mid-level fighters wear +1 or +2 chainmail. Higher level fighters are probably going to switch to mithril plate or mithril chainmail. If they go with mithril chainmail, they retain normal speed.

Also, any kind of movement boost changes the equation considerably. Full plate + boots of speed = freight train.
It has always been Full Plate as soon as possible, following by Mithral Full Plate closely after for my group. Unless we played a unusual type of Fighter, of course.

NO. Nononononononononono. Just no.

There is no one more versatile than a fighter. There is absolutely no problem for a fighter to specialize in both greatsword and longbow. There is no reason to even go down the weapon specialization path if you want to be able to pick up anything you find.
I played a Fighter without Weapon Specialization once - during our Shackled City campaign.

Sinking six feats into one weapon choice without a backup plan is an extremely suboptimized fighter. What if you choose bastard sword and your opponent flies? What if you choose morningstar and you need a slashing weapon? What if you get disarmed or some smartass disintegrates your weapon? No, those feats are great for creating your super smackdown, but the bread and butter of a fighter is having some options. If nothing else, take Throw Anything, Point Blank Shot, and Powerful Throw and get a +1 throwing returning greatsword so you at least have something to do.
Actually, it is not unoptimized. The few situations where you actually need a different weapon then you specialized in, you compensate by simply hitting harder and more often.

After having played my "Maneuver Expert" Fighter, I can't shake off the feeling that I made a complicated character with a lot of options that would have been overshadowed by a simpler, weapon specialized character... :(

Protection from evil solves many problems.
It does. It is nice knowing that if the Fighter is too weak, the Cleric and Wizard can still lend some of their considerable power to compensate. Particularly great because Protection from Evil also nerfs a host of other options in the game (but at least not those for the Fighter...)

Apart from that, there's not much to say, the fighter has one good save, two bad saves, like most classes. I would definitely take Iron Will at some point, and a cloak of resistance is a good thing to have.
Cloak of Resistance is a must anyway, but Iron Will barely matters. Your Willpower will never reach those of anyone with a good Will Save.

At higher levels, there are options. A number of fighter-oriented prestige classes offer a Will boost. And maybe you can purchase a wand of remove enchantment for your rogue friend to carry.
Well, at least that will make the Rogue feel useful, too.

The Warblade has advantages, but I think that sticks out as a strong point of the Warblade rather than a weakness of the Fighter. The rogue is not going to be happy about making a lot of Fortitude saves, either.
No, he certainly won't. But at least they just kill and don't turn him against his comrades.

I don't consider this a counter-example at all. I hope the "sunder master" would have some versatility, but at the very least, I hope he's carrying a bow or some tanglefoot bags or something.
Tanglefoot Bags are a good, broken equipment, that's true. Of course, the Warblade could use them, too. The bow will be very weak for any Fighter not focusing on it, which will lead to weaknesses in other areas...

Fighters have a staggering number of feats, and a well-tailored fighter has something for just about every situation. There are not many characters who can switch between using a bow with Precise Shot to a greatsword and going Power Attack. The fighter can afford to be at the top in one or two categories and still have backup strategies.
I actually think he can't. If you want to really be good in more then one tactic, you will achieve it only at higher levels. And you're playing a Fighter from level 1-20, not just level 14-20.

I would rather not be stuck with a deck of maneuvers and hope I have one that applies to the current situation. To me, the fighter has options and versatility. To me, a "cool maneuver" is a tactical choice that deals with an opponent in an effective manner.
Certainly. But whether that's the standard maneuver trip or a Warblade maneuver doesn't change this.

Frankly, if the fighter is doing the same thing around, you are probably not playing the class to its full potential. That would be like playing a wizard and resorting to "I cast fireball" as your solution to all life's problems or playing a rogue and saying "Gosh, undead, I guess I'm out" instead of looking at your options.
Well, my aforementioned fighter was pretty effective with re-using a full attack routine combined with a trip attempt. It got a little tedious. Unfortunately, variety wasn't really such an optimal tactic as I originally believed. After all, the Fighter was not meant to be a trip money, but a maneuver monkey...
 

I have absolutely no idea what the heck you are trying to say....
True. There is nothing preventing the fighter from trying to make untrained sleight-of-hand checks, but he is going to fail every time, so why even bother?

It is not the best roleplaying which lets you succeed at a task, but hard cold stats. This is how the game works. How is it a player/DM flaw?

The fighter will not fail every time, that is the DM/player flaw, to think that it must be some hard cold stats that dictate what you can and cannot try to do.

Is there a rule for going to the bathroom in D&D? No? Then you characters never do.

So what does that mean for them? Do all the races including "human" have no organs for this? Do the use all food materials they consume?

There will not, and should not be cold hard stats for everything, and just because there is no cold hard stats, does not mean you cannot try, and/or that trying will fail.

Do you think PCs were born as a rogue able to pick-pockets?

Does a fighter trying to pick a few pockets automatically convert them to a rogue?

I don't know what you are playing, but it is NOT how the game works. It is just how your group plays it.

If you feel your group is playing it wrong, then you should talk with your group to loosen up a bit and explore their own imagination more, and see exactly what a fighter can or cannot do is only limited to your own ability to come up with something to do.

D&D isn't a MMO where you hit an invisible wall because you reached the end of the zone, and have to use the correct exit point to transfer to the next zone. You can climb the trees, and you can dig a hole in the ground. The whole stays there until someone of time fills it up, not until the zone is reset or the ground respawns so other people can dig there.
 

You can't fill a niche "minimally". 5 ranks in Survival or Diplomacy at level 7 won't cut anything - you will still be a terrible tracker, and you won't convince anyone with your +4 to +6 modifiers to Diplomacy either. A Sorcerer gets your level of skill just by looking good!

Diplomacy DCs are flat. A fighter can have a fair chance at beating a DC 15 check. As for Survival... the DC for anything that isn't itself trained in Survival is also flat. Foraging is also a flat DC.

With hyperbole: The solution to any fighter problems is by not playing a fighter.

And the solution to any non-fighter problem is to take some levels in fighter. Never made a psychic warrior or a warblade with 2 or 4 levels of fighter? Multiclassing is not mandatory, but it's just as good an option for a fighter as anyone else, and one thing to observe is they pay a cheaper price, since few of their abilities scale to fighter level.

Using a bow requires expending money on a good magical bow and spending resources for a good dexterity. It will give you passable ranged and passable melee attacks, but nothing that will really suffice.

It will suffice nicely. You would never spend as much on your backup weapon as your primary, but you will need to do something. A warblade also needs a ranged weapon, and they will not be as good with it as a fighter is.

Unfortunately, way to many enemies beat your Fighter at grappling, tripping, disarming or sundering based on size or used weaponry alone.

Sometimes the best option is to lose that game more slowly than your wizard would.... It's just as true for warblades, I think.

It has always been Full Plate as soon as possible, following by Mithral Full Plate closely after for my group. Unless we played a unusual type of Fighter, of course.

I think that's common, but far from universal. I usually see chain shirt, then mithril chain mail. I've also seen some pretty unusual fighters.

It does. It is nice knowing that if the Fighter is too weak, the Cleric and Wizard can still lend some of their considerable power to compensate.

After all, that's what friends are for. Where would the Wizard be if a mind flayer grappled him and the fighter wasn't around?

Cloak of Resistance is a must anyway, but Iron Will barely matters. Your Willpower will never reach those of anyone with a good Will Save.

Reaching a good Will save is not the goal, any more than it's a wizard's goal to approximate a full BAB.

Well, at least that will make the Rogue feel useful, too.

Not very big on the rogue, eh?

Tanglefoot Bags are a good, broken equipment, that's true. Of course, the Warblade could use them, too. The bow will be very weak for any Fighter not focusing on it, which will lead to weaknesses in other areas...

The bow will be weaker, but not weak. And there is no reason for a fighter to have a glaring weakness in any area of combat unless you make that personal choice.

I actually think he can't. If you want to really be good in more then one tactic, you will achieve it only at higher levels. And you're playing a Fighter from level 1-20, not just level 14-20.

In this regard, I will have to say you are simply, demonstrably wrong. Many builds come into their own well before 10th level.

Well, my aforementioned fighter was pretty effective with re-using a full attack routine combined with a trip attempt. It got a little tedious. Unfortunately, variety wasn't really such an optimal tactic as I originally believed. After all, the Fighter was not meant to be a trip money, but a maneuver monkey...

Virtually every character is going to resort to some favored tactic in most situations. That's especially true of Warblades, who have only a certain suite of maneuvers to choose from in the first place. That doesn't mean variety isn't valuable; vareity is what you need in the unexpected scenario. In the usual scenario, you want a good, flexible plan with depth.

Being a "trip monkey" is not such a great tactic. The spiked chain wielder is not going to be happy when they meet a dwarf monk or a collosal frog. But being a maneuver person is fine, with tripping being one of several options for dealing with a situation.

It's really nice to be able to whip out a longbow and some flaming arrows when you meet a flying white dragon. You may not be a great archer, but you're a better one than someone who never planned for that possibility at all. In my experience, having nothing interesting to do usually reflects a lack of advance planning.
 


The fighter will not fail every time, that is the DM/player flaw, to think that it must be some hard cold stats that dictate what you can and cannot try to do.

Yes, he will fail. Every time after a certain level. No ranks in sleight of hand means that you will be spotted EVERY TIME. That's an automatical failure because the people you are trying to pick pocket from have very high spot checks.

I look at it like this. I'm watching two fighter types in my campaign right now. One is trying to do a viable unarmed fighter without going the monk route. The other has gone to pure spiked chain wielding cheeze.

The spike wielder is burying the unarmed fighter and will continue to do so for the rest of the campaign.

In my last campaign, the absolute most effective fighter was the power attacking barbarian. But, the only reason he was so effective was because the party bard was backing him up. Stack on enough buffs that power attack works all the time. But, basically, it took two characters to pull it off. If I choked off the bard, the barbarian got buried and looked very, very weak next to the cleric.

I can't believe people are still debating this. It's been taken as a given for years that the non-caster types got hosed. Heck, the plethora of feats specifically for fighters speaks to this. A large section of the PHB 2 was devoted to making fighters not suck so badly.
 

After all, that's what friends are for. Where would the Wizard be if a mind flayer grappled him and the fighter wasn't around?
Probably using dimension door. He certainly shouldn't count on the mind-blasted Fighter to rescue his precious brain. ;)

Not very big on the rogue, eh?
Like the fighter, I am very fond of him, I just wish there were less situations where he is hampered badly.

Virtually every character is going to resort to some favored tactic in most situations. That's especially true of Warblades, who have only a certain suite of maneuvers to choose from in the first place. That doesn't mean variety isn't valuable; vareity is what you need in the unexpected scenario. In the usual scenario, you want a good, flexible plan with depth.
I haven't played Warblades or used any of the Bo9S material, so I can make only some guesses. But are the options of trip, disarm, sunder, bullrush and bow really so much more then the maneuvers the Warblade get? (Aside from the fact that the Warblade gets these options, too.)

Being a "trip monkey" is not such a great tactic. The spiked chain wielder is not going to be happy when they meet a dwarf monk or a collosal frog. But being a maneuver person is fine, with tripping being one of several options for dealing with a situation.
Trip was definitely the best tactic I had, despite being quite able to use different maneuvers, too. Far to few enemies use manufactured weapons, and while you can try to trip a large foe, grappling him is usually futile. Bullrush has a neglible effect, and sunder has the same problem that disarm has - plus that you destroy treasure (though that was never really a concern to me.)

It's really nice to be able to whip out a longbow and some flaming arrows when you meet a flying white dragon. You may not be a great archer, but you're a better one than someone who never planned for that possibility at all. In my experience, having nothing interesting to do usually reflects a lack of advance planning.
Even better are Dragonbane Arrows. And still better are Boots of Flying so you can just charge the dragon midflight...
 

Yes, he will fail. Every time after a certain level. No ranks in sleight of hand means that you will be spotted EVERY TIME. That's an automatical failure because the people you are trying to pick pocket from have very high spot checks.

What is wrong with some people. Do they have such a defeatist attitude in real life?

I can't do this because [insert excuse here]. I can't do that because [insert excuse here].

OR....

I can't do it, so it must not be able to be done.

Think. Where does it say that there is an automatic failure for some specific thing a fighter tries to do. Since this is being hen-pecked by some book rule, then cite me the book, edition, and page #.

Keep with picking pockets for continuities sake.
 

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