4e Ravenloft - Dragon 368

[ShadowDenizen]

...but of course, if this thread is going to devolve into a "4e is anime/videogame", then its useless to continue debating.

I think you misinterpreted my post that you quoted, Miriel; there's CLEARLY no attempt to devolve the thread or start a flame-war .

On my part, I was merely stating my opinion on what I percieve the influences of 4E to be, and compare/contrast them to what the RL influences have historically been, and how they seem fundamemtally different. (If you notice, I made a point of prefacing the statment you quoted with a "IMO" disclaimer.)

Sorry if you think of it as "flaming" or "trolling"; I think of it as debating and discussing a setting I love, and how well it will (or will not) adapt to a fundamentally new ruleset and philosophy. (THAT, to me, is the question under discussion.)

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I think you misinterpreted my post that you quoted, Miriel; there's CLEARLY no attempt to devolve the thread or start a flame-war .

On my part, I was merely stating my opinion on what I percieve the influences of 4E to be, and compare/contrast them to what the RL influences have historically been, and how they seem fundamemtally different. (If you notice, I made a point of prefacing the statment you quoted with a "IMO" disclaimer.)

Sorry if you think of it as "flaming" or "trolling"; I think of it as debating and discussing a setting I love, and how well it will (or will not) adapt to a fundamentally new ruleset and philosophy. (THAT, to me, is the question under discussion.)

Ah, but you forget where you are Shadow. This is the place where people will praise 4e for being simplified, and then abuse and attack someone on the very next page who agrees that it's simplified, but sees it as a bad thing, screaming "it's not dumbed down or simplified! It's JUST as complex, so long as that's taken to be a good thing!"

 

[La Bete]

Ah, but you forget where you are Shadow. This is the place where people will praise 4e for being simplified, and then abuse and attack someone on the very next page who agrees that it's simplified, but sees it as a bad thing, screaming "it's not dumbed down or simplified! It's JUST as complex, so long as that's taken to be a good thing!"

Pssst! Your Shtick is showing!

 

[NilesB]

I think you misinterpreted my post that you quoted, Miriel;

If he did, then you wrote something other then what you meant.


My view of what Ravenloft needs will probably anger some fans but here it is anyway.

1> Ravenloft needs less focus on the Domain lords. Ravenloft adventures have a tendency to turn into a kind of Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern are dead scenario with the PCs flitting about impotently in the background while the real drama plays out between NPCs.

An aid to this would be an end to the strict correlation between Domains and Polities, Another would be to offer multiple candidates or backstories and curses for the lords of some domains(this would also increase suspense and DM ownership of their campaigns).

2> Ravenloft's effectiveness as a horror setting is diminished by intense focus of the setting on doing horror and only horror. werewolves and undead aren't especially scary if they're the only things you fight. Wouldn't it be nice for the PCs on learning that a monster is tormenting the village each night, not to immediately start eyeing the townsfolk to see which one of them is secretly the monster?

3> Ravenloft needs less "screw the PCs" and "undead are better than you" mechanics because those mechanics always sucked.

 

[Treebore]

Wow! People actually ran Ravenloft where they fought the domain lords and frequently fought werewolves and undead? DM's didn't create their own domains and lords? They didn't rewrite existing Domain Lords to fit what they want?

Thats depressing. I always thought DM's used the undead and other monsters relatively sparingly in order to highten how scary they are. Well, except in the case of wererats. I think the scariest things about them is that they attacked in swarms. So when you kick over their lair, watch out! I also thought Ravenloft DM's created Domain Lords of their own, and rewrote/changed any established Domain Lord to fit their campaign needs. Plus use the Domain Lords as the climax of the campaign, or campaign story arc.

It sure seemed to me to be that way, maybe it was just the Ravenloft DM's who hung out on the same message board I did before it was shut down 3 or 4 years ago.

If that has been the problem I certainly hope WOTC uses this opportunity to teach DM's how to run their Ravenloft campaigns better.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Wow! People actually ran Ravenloft where they fought the domain lords and frequently fought werewolves and undead? DM's didn't create their own domains and lords? They didn't rewrite existing Domain Lords to fit what they want?

Why wouldn't people use the existing domains and lords?

While some were silly, quite a few were really interesting. It'd be silly not to use them just because someone else wrote them, especially since one's playing in a published setting to begin with.

One of the best campaigns I ever ran was a mini-campaign (5 games) set in Ravenloft, that made heavy use of Strahd and his backstory. And the campaign wouldn't have worked any other way, precisely because it did draw on a legend and backstory that all the players already knew.

Sure, not every campaign--not even the majority--should revolve around darklords. And DMs should never be afraid to create their own. But neither is there any good reason not to use them, when it's appropriate to do so.

 

[Vocenoctum]

1> Ravenloft needs less focus on the Domain lords.

I think you're wrong here, because I don't think it WAS focused on the domain lords, in general. There were quite a few domains where the Lord wasn't Lord in an obvious way. The interaction with the players varied a lot also.

2> Ravenloft's effectiveness as a horror setting is diminished by intense focus of the setting on doing horror and only horror.

I think this and #1 both come from a perception perpetuated by the internet/ others opinions of RL. It's like CoC's "rotating PC" joke.

If you look at any of the adventures, and a lot of the other material, Ravenloft frequently ignored the "a lord can't die" thing, and "no one can escape ravenloft" was meant as a way of stopping players from teleporting out mid adventure. At the end of each published adventure, the group returns to the material world. At the start of each adventure, the team is drawn into the mists.

The idea of setting an entire campaign in RL, IMO, really wasn't strong until later on. The players were always outsiders coming into a situation, for good or ill.

 

[qstor]

Concerned because:
1. I saw what "making Forgotten Realms core" did to FR.
2. A full Domains of Dread would not fit in a Dragon Mag; what are they cutting out?
3. A culture within WotC that seems unclear on the difference between Emo/goth and actual Gothic horror. I'm looking at you, Tiefling entry in Races & Classes.
4. The RtCR book that seemed to think slasher-fic was a good substitute for tragedy.


Ironically, I do recognize that Wizards really screwing up Ravenloft would be the best way to actually get me in character for playing in Ravenloft (because my nightmares would be realized).

Tieflings and Dragonborn welcome to Ravenloft. Bill Slavicsek has said that each setting will be Core in 4e. So 4e will butcher all of TSR/WOTC's old settings.

Mike

 

[harzerkatze]

I am another Ravenloft fan eager to find out whether Ravenloft will make a comeback in 4th Ed. I am of the following mindset:
- Any try to bring it back is good, because if I don't like it, I will ignore it.
- I too think that 4th Ed is less suited for Ravenloft than former Editions. Even if you have no Dragonborn etc. to deal with, a wizards casting Scorching Burst (a 15 ' fireball) all day long does not lend itself to Gothic Horror easily. To take it seriously, you would have to limit classes to the martial classes, because all others routinously display supernatural abilities that should scare the townfolk. In my Ravenloft 4th Ed try, I will tell the players that any display of supernatural power will provoke a lynchmop. So playing a human or elven fighter or ranger is easy. If you want to play a Warlock, Swordmage or Psaladin, you can, but in many battles can't use your powers. Better be able to use a base attack, too. I think that is just necessary for the feel of the setting.
I'll still try to play my Doppelganger Wizard I love so much when it is my turn to be player, and think of ways to be effective without my powerful spells in public.
It's a challenge.
- There are very different concepts what Ravenloft is really about. What was prominent for me was that problems are larger than you and that you need to think outside the box to solve them, you can't just whack them with a stick a lot. 4th Ed is the direct opposite: Challenges are designed mathematically to be usually overcome by the right conventional strategy. Not that that os difficult to change, but it is a different design view and may cause unexpected problems.

So at least a lot of work is necessary to make a credible 4th-Ed-Ravenloft.

However, IF you want to try a 4th-Ed Ravenloft Campaign with existing rules, a few things work in your favour, on the other hand:
- Curses and diseases have become REALLY scary. Unless you happen to have the Endurance skill, you will most probably not heal a disease by yourself, and the only cure then is a ritual that will quite likely kill you. And gets worse the higher your level is (if the disease usually has your level). This rule screams for a campaign where the heroes are in a city that is quarantines because the black death has been starting there. If I was a player in that campaign, I would be REALLY scared. Same goes with Lycanthropes: Before they were dangerous because they had Damage Resistance, now you really fear them for their disease. Because Cuse Disease and remove curse are no longer minor spells.
- The Minion rules mean that a townfolk lynchmop now is a real danger, no matter what your level. Before, you could be reasonable sure that when you are level 10, a few farmers with pitchforks will not be able to hurt you. Now they are, and die much more easily, which faster gets you to the dark side.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

- I too think that 4th Ed is less suited for Ravenloft than former Editions.

The first Domains of Dread article seemed to fit the Ravenloft feel just fine, IMO. *shrug*