Need Some Ideas On Dealing With Death.

[Pseudopsyche]

3. Associate a role-playing cost to resurrection. Imagine, for example, if the heroic PCs found out that every time a raise dead ritual is cast, somewhere some woman suffers a stillbirth.

I like this idea (although I wouldn't use your specific example). Any mechanical penalty will lead to the problems already mentioned, but role-playing penalties allow plenty of flexibility while being harder to dodge. (Rolling a new character forfeits all your "story assets" in the form of character development, NPC contacts, reputation.)

IMC, I'll allow the party to use the Raise Dead ritual, which seems pretty cheap mechanically, but I'll make clear the opportunity cost of spending 8 hours (at minimum) dealing with the ritual. That's a day they're allowing the villains to act unopposed, or allowing competing adventurers to get ahead, or whatnot.

 

[Remathilis]

You're assuming that all that matters is survival and, specifically, the PC's survival.

Failure can be a fate worse than death, particularly if failure means other people important to the PC will die.

But my point then isn't a "death flag", its "the DM has devised a scenario where I must sacrifice my PC to achieve my goals." If the PCs are in a situation that they cannot win by normal skill/luck (such as a reasonable combat scenario) then there is no reason to getting the bonus if it means my character dies. Its like doubling down on an average hand; sure, you might win and get everything, but if you don't, you just lost your shirt.

As a DM, I find this thought hilarious.

"death" in this context means "I cannot play my character and must make a new one." Imprisonment, insanity, Being turning into a zombie; etc are all pretty much "death", I'm going to be rolling up a new PC.

If whatever the cost of losing is doesn't stop me from playing my PC (escaping jail, paying fines, going on quests of atonement, etc) then I come out ahead. I'm still playing my PC, and whatever the consequence of failure is is a further role-playing element (not to mention adventure) to explore.

Unless the loss of a PC costs the player money or physical harm, the ability to continue playing my PC is far better than any "punishment for failure" the DM can devise...

 

[Remathilis]

Mechanical ideas would be nice, but even more so, I'm interested in a narrative, in-story concept for this "death safety net" which seems cool, rather than trumped up or hokey.

I always wanted to do a campaign based on a Highlander concept; you and your pals are Immortals who cannot die EXCEPT through some unique situation (like being beheaded by another immortal). Mundane foes would be dangerous (since being immortal doesn't mean you can ignore wounds, just never die from them) but powerful foes who are "equals" (like under immortals) would be dangerous, and losing to them could mean real death.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I've used this one to good effect in my games. Coming back from the dead always costs 1 point of Constitution. This loss is permanent, and cannot be restored even by immortal magic. If this would drop the character's Con score to 0, that character cannot be raised and is forever lost.

Aside from the fact that I never liked resurrection (I ban it in pretty much all of my games), this system would make me hate it all the more. Why would I bring my character who died back to have him be crippled and die even faster the next time? I'd rather make a new character.
Roleplay consequences would be much better in my opinion, but even those don't help me get over the fact that death should be something important, something to be feared and something drastic. Or in other words (and just in my opinion): permanent.

I'll freely admit that this creates dangers for plot continuity if too many characters die, but as a DM that's just a case of tweaking/fudging your encounters so that they don't kill too easily and creating a setting/situation where replacement characters can easily be introduced into the story...

 

[Treebore]

I do several things.

1. I use luck points, and you get one per adventure per level +1. You can permanently burn one to turn death into near death.

2. As soon as I can I introduce powerful NPC allies. IF the players are smart they cultivate a friendship. When the PC, or PC's die, these NPC's have a real life type of motivation to go bring their friends back to life.

3. When the PC dies I judge how they died. If they died due to stupidity I penalize them however severely I wish too. IF they were stupid enough I may even be severe enough to make them want to play a new character.

If they died well, heroically, due to bad dice rolls, things along these lines they aren't penalized at all. As DM I am their god, and it is my judgement that matters. So I show them mercy, or rake them over the coals, however I see fit. Just like I figure a "real" god would.

If they have no friends, or not enough funds, Temples always have dangerous missions which they need done, and will accept as payment in Lieu of the gold.

The cool thing is if the players decide to "skip payment" the god can always take back the life they gave.

Some people say having high level NPC friends, or having temples willing to take missions in lieu of payment is contrived, whatever, and cheapens the impact of death. However, in a world where people are brought back to life, even after decades of being dead, people will do things that make them money or gain them power. Plus good friends are always willing to go save another good friend.

So having temples willing to take fulfillment of missions instead of solid gold, and high level friends capable of going to get you, or able to bring you back to life themselves, may seem contrived, but it is how it would be in a world where such things are possible to do.

So a world where people can and are brought back to life, not to mention have clerics performing true miracles at will, will drastically change how people view death in their world in comparison to how we view it in our world.

ITs a huge difference to live in a world where death is permanent, and one where it is reversible, if your rich or connected enough.

 

[Asmor]

But my point then isn't a "death flag", its "the DM has devised a scenario where I must sacrifice my PC to achieve my goals." If the PCs are in a situation that they cannot win by normal skill/luck (such as a reasonable combat scenario) then there is no reason to getting the bonus if it means my character dies. Its like doubling down on an average hand; sure, you might win and get everything, but if you don't, you just lost your shirt.

It's more likely the case that the PCs have a chance to succeed which can be boosted by raising the death flag. Maybe they've got a 75% chance of success, but the PC just doesn't want to risk failing.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Unless the loss of a PC costs the player money or physical harm, the ability to continue playing my PC is far better than any "punishment for failure" the DM can devise...

The death knight looms over your broken body. His eyesockets flare and an ironshod boot shatters the sword of your fathers. He grabs your throat and an icy chill suffuses your body.

"FOOLISH MORTAL."

He contemptuously tosses you aside and you feel some of your ribs give way as you hit the ground. As blackness suffuses your vision, you can hear his laughter grating inside your skull.

DM: Your +3 radiant ancestral sword is broken beyond simple repair. You seem to have picked up vulnerable 5 cold, too. Also, please write down this "lingering wound - ribcage" stuff, you'll need it.

 

[(un)reason]

Are we talking about an in-game mechanic, or a metagame one. As an in game one, I once used a literal deal with valhalla. (this was high level play, and things were getting pretty gonzo at that point.) If they died in battle, they would simply be reborn the next day. This still meant they lost all their stuff, and had to retrieve it from whoever killed them. Better play it smart.

Other examples of games where death is not a permanent handicap includes an number of white wolf games like Wraith: the oblivion, Mummy: the resurrection and Demon: the fallen. In all of them, running out of health levels may put you out of the fight, and certainly isn't without cost, but is unlikely to permanently remove your character from play. Witchcraft also has several varieties of supernaturals for whom death is merely a short term inconvenience. Then there's the "death is by default just being knocked out" approach, as used in Heroquest and BESM, where if they would die in grittier games, it simply means the GM gets to put them in an even more humiliating position to figure their way out of. And of course, let's not forget TOON.

 

[Kunimatyu]

It's a metagame thing. Works for basically any RPG with a action-point-like mechanic.

 

[I'm A Banana]

since all manner of terrible things the DM can do it you is never worse than the loss of the PC

...awwwww.....that's so adorable!

If the PCs are in a situation that they cannot win by normal skill/luck (such as a reasonable combat scenario) then there is no reason to getting the bonus if it means my character dies. Its like doubling down on an average hand; sure, you might win and get everything, but if you don't, you just lost your shirt.

This mechanic works better in a "sandbox" style where the PCs can and do get in over their head, simply from going into the wrong cave. The idea is that some great necromancer killed your family. Okay, he's 34th level. Okay, you're 2nd. Okay, you want to go slay him? Right now? Is it worth risking true and irrevocable death for? It is? Okay, you have a chance to succeed now.

In a game where the challenges all cater directly to what the PC's are capable of (a more narrative style), it would be more likely to say that the Death Flag is normally raised in certain epic battles that are key to the story or the character. You don't have to worry about a random goblin getting a lucky crit, but you will have to worry about that powerful death knight you've been following through a swath of carnage for the last five levels, because HE'S IMPORTANT, and the goblins are just there to soften you up for him.

If living or dying is all that matters to a player, then the Death Flag is too dramatic to be suited to their style of play. The Death Flag assumes that there are much more important things that the life of one character, and that said character's player can decide for themselves what these important things are by being willing to die for it. You have to have a motive outside of hit points for it to be effective.