Need Some Ideas On Dealing With Death.

[firesnakearies]

I don't like character death. Well, I do, actually. I just don't like the aftermath. I'd like to run games where there really isn't any permanent character death, where there's never a "okay, roll a new character" moment for anyone.

However, I do NOT want death to be trivial, meaningless, or something that the players will casually suffer in a fearless, blase manner. I want death to matter, I want it to sting, I want it to be scary, and I want the players to try to avoid it just as much as they do now.

I just want a system or a narrative safety net in place, ahead of time, which makes death merely a Highly Negative Event rather than the end of a character or a campaign. Ideally, something that doesn't feel contrived or silly, something which doesn't rob the campaign of dramatic tension or a sense of consequences.

I also want to reduce the absolute necessity of spending lots of money when people die. I mean, I definitely still want the Raise Dead ritual to be in, and I want the PCs to have it, to use it, and for it to be very important and beneficial for them. But I don't want it to be the only option. I want the players to see it as an expensive way for them to ease the detriment or hassle of death, if they're able and willing to pay the cost. But not to feel like it's the only option, such that a few deaths now and then serve to completely drain the party's financial resources.

How do I punish the PCs for dying without ending the story or removing a character from the game, while NOT hurting them so much that it simply makes it even MORE likely that they'll keep dying, in a way which makes them cautious and hesitant to throw their lives away, yet which doesn't simply piss them off due to heavy-handedness of penalization?

Mechanical ideas would be nice, but even more so, I'm interested in a narrative, in-story concept for this "death safety net" which seems cool, rather than trumped up or hokey.

Thanks!

 

[Asmor]

Well, let me preface this by saying that, IMHO, if the players know they're able to be resurrected, no matter the obstacles put in place, death will never have the full effect.

That said, here's a couple suggestions.

1. Don't let the players know that they can be resurrected. Works best if death is rare, so you can semi-plausibly work in a one-time, "lucky" resurrection mechanism (e.g. a god intervening).

2. Associate a statistical cost to resurrection. This could be reduction in stats or something else.

3. Associate a role-playing cost to resurrection. Imagine, for example, if the heroic PCs found out that every time a raise dead ritual is cast, somewhere some woman suffers a stillbirth.

 

[Alan Shutko]

A problem I have with this is that you run the risk of making it less appealing to have your character come back to life than to just roll up a new one that isn't crippled by whatever ideas you come up with. How often does death really come up, anyway?

If it's really rarely, then almost anything could work. Make it require some subplot to get a resurrection. If it's happening so frequently you really need to nail down rules on this, in my mind that's a problem right there. I've been in one campaign with a high degree of player death, and I think it's resulted in a loss of characterization, since none of us want to waste too much time investing in such a disposable character.

If you do decide to go with mechanics for this, be wary of creating a death spiral. A mechanic where if you die, you have penalties makes sense from a narrative point of view, but makes it more likely that your character will die again. If the party is generally squeaking by encounters causing characters do die, the resultant penalties could easily escalate into a TPK. Been there, played through that. Didn't like it.

 

[WhatGravitas]

2. Associate a statistical cost to resurrection. This could be reduction in stats or something else.

This will lead to one of two things:
1) The once-dead PC is worse than the rest and becomes a liability - or at least performs badly, making it less fun to play him.
2) The player cops out... and says he'd rather play a new character than play a crippled one.

Personally, I rather prefer making death harder - i.e. PCs don't die casually, only if enemies really try to or the PC allows it to happen.

Another way would be: Tying the PC's resurrection to something important: Like you can only be resurrected if the ritual is done beforehand, creating some kind of "safety net" - so you have to pay the resurrection cost in advance. This way, you tie your soul to something (like a ring or so) that keeps final death away (with the restriction that you have to carry that item with you in the moment of death - and that it's needed to do the actual resurrection).

If, however, this tie gets stolen or is broken, then death is permanent. Since most people are too poor to do the ritual and resourceful enemies are able to take that safety net away.

EDIT: Furthermore, that's a nice way to tie adventurers to patrons and benefactors - they're paying the "life insurance" for them, i.e. they help doing the ritual so the PCs can start on adventures without having to pay for that - a big draw, I think.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Death Flag, baby.

Death Flag is your friend.

 

[Asmor]

Death Flag, baby.

Death Flag is your friend.

Since it's not obvious what he's talking about unless you already know, let me explain:

The Death Flag was, AFAIK, originally created by Ryan Stoughton. In a nutshell, his house rules included something which were like action points. Players could elect to "raise their death flag" and gain several of these points, but doing so meant that they could be killed. If their death flag was not raised, they could not be killed. They could be defeated, knocked unconscious, captured, but not killed. Thus, raising the death flag gave you a chance to really give it your all in support of something your character really, really wanted to succeed at, but also meant risking your life.

 

[Remathilis]

Since it's not obvious what he's talking about unless you already know, let me explain:

The Death Flag was, AFAIK, originally created by Ryan Stoughton. In a nutshell, his house rules included something which were like action points. Players could elect to "raise their death flag" and gain several of these points, but doing so meant that they could be killed. If their death flag was not raised, they could not be killed. They could be defeated, knocked unconscious, captured, but not killed. Thus, raising the death flag gave you a chance to really give it your all in support of something your character really, really wanted to succeed at, but also meant risking your life.

Intriguing, but...

Assuming your using challenges and DCs or something resembling appropriate challenges (enemies not very high over CR, DCs that are within max skills ranks +20) then, as a player, their is never a need to raise th Death Flag. If the penalty for failure isn't "death", than no reasonable challenge is worth the Carrot:Stick ratio.

UNLESS

You've made a challenge that is far beyond the assumed norms (monsters with CRs 5 or more over party level, DCs beyond the PCs potential max roll). so that the PCs have to raise the death flag or else have no chance as "succeeding", your pretty much just building death traps, no different than the standard rules. Sure, the boons could aid the PC in a now life-or-death situation, but its no different than the standard rules.

Unless I'm missing something, there is no reason to raise the death flag (since all manner of terrible things the DM can do it you is never worse than the loss of the PC) unless the DM makes a scenario that forces you to (which is really no better than the DM creating a death trap anyway).

Did I miss something?

 

[Asmor]

no reasonable challenge is worth the Carrot:Stick ratio.

You're assuming that all that matters is survival and, specifically, the PC's survival.

Failure can be a fate worse than death, particularly if failure means other people important to the PC will die.

 

[Kunimatyu]

(since all manner of terrible things the DM can do it you is never worse than the loss of the PC)

As a DM, I find this thought hilarious.

 

[CleverNickName]

2. Associate a statistical cost to resurrection. This could be reduction in stats or something else.

I've used this one to good effect in my games. Coming back from the dead always costs 1 point of Constitution. This loss is permanent, and cannot be restored even by immortal magic. If this would drop the character's Con score to 0, that character cannot be raised and is forever lost.