Intelligent Blademaster with Javelin?

[Kraydak]

You left out a sentence earlier, though.

"You can't use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon. A melee weapon with the heavy thrown or the light thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown and can be used with ranged attack powers that have the weapon keyword."

But Intelligent Blademaster doesn't require you to use your weapon as a melee weapon. It just requires your weapon to be a melee weapon. A weapon can be both a melee and a ranged weapon at the same time, in which case the above text would prevent using the weapon for a melee attack, while still allowing (because it doesn't explicitly disallow) effects triggering off the "melee" tag from taking effect.

Fun fact: all weapons (i.e. objects) weighing between 1 and 15 pounds are melee weapons (except, arguably, weapons with weights inside the (5,6) pound interval). Life then gets really weird if you allow/force weapon tags to follow the actual physical object instead of the following (and being restricted to) the weapon table entry line.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Well, I was originally writing something about some different ways of looking at the issue and needing clarification from CS or the Errata, but I tossed all that out when I saw the below.

PHB p216
Heavy Thrown: You hurl a thrown weapon from
your hand, rather than using it to loose a projectile. A
ranged basic attack with a heavy thrown weapon uses
your Strength instead of your Dexterity for the attack
and damage rolls

This clearly states that when using a Heavy Thrown weapon you are making a Ranged Basic Attack, not a Melee Basic Attack with a special range property like some kind of super-reach. This is important.

Then take a look at p287 of the PHB for the power description of a Ranged Basic Attack. The description has the "Ranged Weapon" keyword only, nothing else. Below that is the line "Special: Weapons with the heavy thrown property (see page 216) use Strength instead of Dexterity for attack rolls and damage rolls." Since this special line is under the power description that includes only the "Ranged Weapon" keyword, this means that when attacking at range with a Heavy Thrown weapon it is only counting as a Ranged Weapon in that attack. This would be a specific rule that is saying that a Ranged Basic Attack with a Thrown Weapon is counting it as a Ranged Weapon.

That's pretty cut and dry, and pretty much invalidates any possibility of Intelligent Blademaster applying to Heavy Thrown weapons. It's quite clear that when you're using the thrown weapon in a ranged attack, it counts as a ranged weapon only. There is no specific rule dealing with melee weapons making ranged attacks, only with Heavy Thrown weapons functioning as a Ranged Weapon when making a Ranged Basic Attack. This might be something to look into suggesting an Errata for, but until one comes out, I don't see any way to apply a bonus for melee weapons to a ranged weapon, which is what you're using when you're attacking with a Heavy Thrown weapon.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Fun fact: all weapons (i.e. objects) weighing between 1 and 15 pounds are melee weapons (except, arguably, weapons with weights inside the (5,6) pound interval). Life then gets really weird if you allow/force weapon tags to follow the actual physical object instead of the following (and being restricted to) the weapon table entry line.

WTF are you talking about? Ranged weapons can't be used as melee weapons...meaning you can't attack someone in melee with a bow. Yet all bows and crossbows are between 2 and 4 lbs (in PHB, I didn't check AV, but it should be similar). So if you're saying that all melee weapons weigh between 1 and 15 lbs, then I guess that would be true, but not all weapons between 1 and 15 lbs are melee.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, I was originally writing something about some different ways of looking at the issue and needing clarification from CS or the Errata, but I tossed all that out when I saw the below.

This clearly states that when using a Heavy Thrown weapon you are making a Ranged Basic Attack, not a Melee Basic Attack with a special range property like some kind of super-reach. This is important.

No one is claiming this to be the case. This is not relevant to the argument.

Then take a look at p287 of the PHB for the power description of a Ranged Basic Attack. The description has the "Ranged Weapon" keyword only, nothing else.

Incorrect. It does not have the 'Ranged weapon' keyword. 'Ranged weapon means it has the Ranged attack type with a range of 'weapon' which means something specific. Notice: the weapon is not bolded, but it means that you fill in that blank with a parameter of the weapon. Other attacks have a specific number in squares here. Are you saying that eldritch blast you are attacking with a ranged 10? Of course not. You are not using a ranged 10. You are using a Ranged 10 power, which means it is Ranged, and that it has 10 as its range. The second part is a parameter, not a keyword.

Below that is the line "Special: Weapons with the heavy thrown property (see page 216) use Strength instead of Dexterity for attack rolls and damage rolls." Since this special line is under the power description that includes only the "Ranged Weapon" keyword, this means that when attacking at range with a Heavy Thrown weapon it is only counting as a Ranged Weapon in that attack. This would be a specific rule that is saying that a Ranged Basic Attack with a Thrown Weapon is counting it as a Ranged Weapon.

This is a fallacy. You are using a melee weapon that can be counted as a ranged weapon when used with Ranged powers. This is a completely different thing. Regardless, it does not matter if the weapon is counted as a Ranged Weapon. It does not cease to be a melee weapon. At no point is it forbidden to be used in Melee attacks.

That's pretty cut and dry, and pretty much invalidates any possibility of Intelligent Blademaster applying to Heavy Thrown weapons. It's quite clear that when you're using the thrown weapon in a ranged attack, it counts as a ranged weapon only. There is no specific rule dealing with melee weapons making ranged attacks, only with Heavy Thrown weapons functioning as a Ranged Weapon when making a Ranged Basic Attack. This might be something to look into suggesting an Errata for, but until one comes out, I don't see any way to apply a bonus for melee weapons to a ranged weapon, which is what you're using when you're attacking with a Heavy Thrown weapon.

But when does it -stop- being a melee weapon? No one is claiming it's not being used as a ranged weapon. No one is, in fact, claiming that you're not using Ranged Basic Attack. In fact, that's sort of the point. You -are- using Ranged Basic Attack, which is a basic attack, and you are using a melee weapon to do so. You are therefore using a basic attack with a melee weapon, and you can therefore replace Strength with Intellegence.

Please note: Shuriken -are- a ranged weapon with the light thrown ability. If they had a ranged weapon with heavy thrown, you would not be able to use it with Intellegent Blademaster.

No one is arguing that you're not using the heavy thrown weapon as a ranged weapon. No one at all. What IS happening is the argument that the weapon never ceases -being- a melee weapon. Intellegent Blademaster does not care about the -kind- of attack you make, only about a quality of the weapon. It asks 'Is this a melee weapon?' There are no heavy thrown weapons that are not melee weapons, therefore Intellegent Blademaster applies to all basic attacks made with them.

If it was supposed to mean 'melee basic attack' it would say 'melee basic attack' just like -every other instance- of melee basic attack-altering properties do.

Ask yourself this.

If you use a one-handed weapon with versatile, using it two-handed, and you have the one-handed weapon talent, do you get the +1 to hit? Yes. It does not stop being a one-handed weapon.

If you have Weapon Focus: Heavy Blade, and you use an Implement power, do you get +1 to damage? Yes. The heavy blade does not cease being a weapon even tho it is used as an implement.

If an enemy incurs an opportunity attack from you, and you have Heavy Blade Opportunity, and you score a critical, if you are using a kopesh, do you also get to apply Deadly Axe? Yes. The kopesh still functions as an axe even if you use it as a heavy blade.

In every case, the ruling is that weapons do not lose their fundamental traits simply because they are used for other purposes or they are used in different ways.

The -general rule- is, therefore: Weapons apply all their properties at all times. There is no such thing as the exclusivity of properties of accessories. Some items can have seemingly contradictory properties, like staffs or light blades being weapons and implements.

There exists no specific rule that makes an exception to this.

 

[Kraydak]

WTF are you talking about? Ranged weapons can't be used as melee weapons...meaning you can't attack someone in melee with a bow. Yet all bows and crossbows are between 2 and 4 lbs (in PHB, I didn't check AV, but it should be similar). So if you're saying that all melee weapons weigh between 1 and 15 lbs, then I guess that would be true, but not all weapons between 1 and 15 lbs are melee.

All objects (including weapons) weighing between 1 and 5 pounds are 1-handed improvised melee weapons. 6-15 for improvised 2-handed melee weapons. Between 5-6, who knows? I don't have my books on me, but those improvised weapons might have some sort of thrown tag, or there might be rules for improvised thrown weapons. Unfortunately, I don't remember that.

So, *if* weapon tags go by object, then you *cannot* pick up a bow and use it as a club (it is ranged). *If* there are improvised thrown weapons, and weapon tags go by object, then non-unarmed melee attacks become virtually impossible. Again, I don't have my book on me, but IIRC javelins are "worse" because you have weapon-tag-sharing-issues inside a single weapon-table entry, as opposed to a bow, where you have weapon-tag-sharing-issues between two (or more) separate entries.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

No one is arguing that you're not using the heavy thrown weapon as a ranged weapon. No one at all. What IS happening is the argument that the weapon never ceases -being- a melee weapon. Intellegent Blademaster does not care about the -kind- of attack you make, only about a quality of the weapon. It asks 'Is this a melee weapon?' There are no heavy thrown weapons that are not melee weapons, therefore Intellegent Blademaster applies to all basic attacks made with them.

If it was supposed to mean 'melee basic attack' it would say 'melee basic attack' just like -every other instance- of melee basic attack-altering properties do.

Show me the rule that says this though. I just showed you a specific rule that says that only a Ranged Weapon can be used in a Ranged Basic Attack, and that a Heavy Thrown weapons counts as a Ranged Weapon when making that attack. If you think it somehow still retains it's Melee Weapon property, then show me the rule that says so.

Otherwise, you're not talking about rules here, you're talking about what you think should be the rule. I think that Scale Spec should have a pre-req other than Dex, or that Plate Spec should should remove one of the armor penalties...but just because I think it should work that way doesn't change the fact that it isn't written that way.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

All objects (including weapons) weighing between 1 and 5 pounds are 1-handed improvised melee weapons. 6-15 for improvised 2-handed melee weapons. Between 5-6, who knows? I don't have my books on me, but those improvised weapons might have some sort of thrown tag, or there might be rules for improvised thrown weapons. Unfortunately, I don't remember that.

So, *if* weapon tags go by object, then you *cannot* pick up a bow and use it as a club (it is ranged). *If* there are improvised thrown weapons, and weapon tags go by object, then non-unarmed melee attacks become virtually impossible. Again, I don't have my book on me, but IIRC javelins are "worse" because you have weapon-tag-sharing-issues inside a single weapon-table entry, as opposed to a bow, where you have weapon-tag-sharing-issues between two (or more) separate entries.

PHB p215
You can’t use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon. A melee
weapon with the heavy thrown or the light thrown
property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown and
can be used with ranged attack powers that have the
weapon keyword.

You can't use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon. Meaning, you can't use your bow as an improvised melee weapon. So no, not all objects between 1 and 5 pounds are 1-handed improvised melee. There are also separate categories for unarmed, improvised melee and improvised ranged. None of these have the "thrown" property, heavy or otherwise.

Additionally, the above is yet another rule stating that using a melee weapon with the thrown property means it counts as ranged weapon when thrown. Again, it specifically says that it is counted as ranged when thrown, and there is no mention of any special "Ranged, but also melee at the same time" property. So, unless you can find a specific rule that says that it counts as both ranged and melee at the same time, it's a ranged weapon when thrown and therefore will not work with the Intelligent Blademaster feat.

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't need a rule that states explicitly that it's a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. It says explicitly that the item in question is a melee weapon. While it also states that it counts as a ranged weapon, it does not state it is no longer a melee weapon.

Why would it stop being a melee weapon? At which point? Please state the -explicit rule- that says 'This is no longer a melee weapon' or something similiar.

Your arguement is based on an assumption that a weapon gives up properties when nothing explicitly states so. Counting as a ranged weapon is not the same as 'stops being a melee weapon.' It only means that it can be used as a ranged weapon. Nothing more. You are assigning rulesbaggage to it that does not exist.

Here's your logical fallacy: You are stating that a weapon cannot be a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. To support your claim you bring up a rule that says a melee weapon can under certain circumstances be treated as a ranged weapon. The rule says, verbatim 'counts as a ranged weapon.' This means that for the sake of powers requiring it, it can substitute as a ranged weapon.

However, it does not say 'IS a ranged weapon.' Which means that even if ranged weapon and melee weapon were exclusive properties (there is no evidence that says they are), the melee weapon never -becomes- a ranged weapon, it merely -acts- like one. Thusly the weapon remains melee.


Let's take this one step further. I can't find a rule that says a melee weapon can't be used in a ranged-type power. However, ranged-type powers do not inherently -work- with melee weapons lacking the range entry, because ranged-type powers involving weapons have the range of 'weapon' which non-thrown melee weapons cannot satisfy. Therefore the use of a Ranged power does not assume the weapon is a ranged weapon, because there is no rule requiring it. The range entry of the weapon is what qualifies it, and that is something possessed by both melee and ranged weapons. Powers with Melee weapon, by contrast are concerned with the reach of the weapon, which is by definition 1 unless the weapon has the reach property.

 

[DracoSuave]

WTF are you talking about? Ranged weapons can't be used as melee weapons...meaning you can't attack someone in melee with a bow. Yet all bows and crossbows are between 2 and 4 lbs (in PHB, I didn't check AV, but it should be similar). So if you're saying that all melee weapons weigh between 1 and 15 lbs, then I guess that would be true, but not all weapons between 1 and 15 lbs are melee.

He's talking about Improvised Melee Weapons.

 

[Kraydak]

You can't use a ranged weapon as a melee weapon. Meaning, you can't use your bow as an improvised melee weapon. So no, not all objects between 1 and 5 pounds are 1-handed improvised melee. There are also separate categories for unarmed, improvised melee and improvised ranged. None of these have the "thrown" property, heavy or otherwise.

So, according to you, tags go by object, regardless of method of use. It follows that a javelin is, always, a melee weapon. Note that under that set of rules, 1 lb objects (the only weight for thrown improvised weapons), despite having an entry in a melee weapon table, cannot be used as improvised melee weapons because they are also improvised ranged weapons. Further note that (extremely) hypothetical weapons (maybe there are some in the AV, I rather doubt it) with worse base state lines than the improvised weapons but with really good tags could then be used as improvised weapons while keeping the good tags.

Of course, for the case of melee weapons with light/heavy thrown tags, you get the more permissive case of weapons with a combined melee/thrown weapon-table entry, so you can't argue your way out of Int. Blademaster+thrown javelin by saying "an improvised weapon doesn't count as the non-improvised use and vice-versa because they are separate weapon table entries".

(btw, I was wrong on 2-handed imp. melee weapons, the weight range s 6-12)