The New 4th Edition God-Killing Rules

[JackSmithIV]

Pardon?

God-killing and epic-level monsters are not the same thing. The poster I was responding to claimed that WotC was forcing their playstyle down our throats, which I thought was a ridiculous claim since the god-killing game information took up a single page in one 4E book.

Sorry, that wasn't pointed at you. Didn't mean to offend... the things you'd previously posted were not specifically considered in my comments. Wasn't blaming anyone, really. It's just annoying to see a post that is meant to inspire lively conversation turn into another arguement.

I bet someone could call up scott rouse and be like "Hey X Y and Z isn't in the GSL, is there a chance it will be at some point , or are you guys doing something with it?" and explain what they want to do... from everything I have seen Scott is one of 2 things...
1) a great guy who is helpful
2) the devil incarnite

Oh, this is probably very true! I do not mean at all to criticize Mr. Rouse or anyone at Wizards. I simply meant to point out what our restrictions are. Personally, there's plenty of things I'd like to do that are both restricted by the GSL but also wouldn't (I'd hope) be intrusive into any Wizards IPs or future endeavors. Though I am a bit fidgety waiting for the updated liscense, it's more anticipatory and excited than frustrated. I have plenty of projects available to me now under the current GSL.

While I'm anxious for the changes, I can be patient. Mr. Rouse and the others at Wizards are busy folk, and (criticize me as you will) I trust in they're ability to deal with this issue in the near future.

As for how this relates to the subject, I hope this leads an SRD that includes terms more far-reaching than the ones found in the current list. This new mechanic is very coo, and seeing as how I didn't think of it first, I'd hope that no matter how unlikely it may be, certain developements outside the Core three books will be comes available for third party exploration soon.

Regards!

 

[Truth Seeker]

For this all talk, did anyone ever think to ask...what the Great Powers ever thought of this?

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I'm strongly of the belief that the final encounter of E3 (which I think doesn't have a name, yet) is going to be Orcus...given that he's the behind-the-scenes villain of H1.

I love these ideas about having a way of killing the evil gods. As someone pointed out, to get to level 30 you're playing characters of enormous power compared to anyone else. These characters should be the Elminsters, Drizzts, Raistlins & Druss of their worlds even if they don't kill a god, so the idea that fighting one should be anything less than campaign defining is slightly absurd to my mind.

 

[avin]

It seems clear to me that 4E is aimed towards GOOD vs EVIL. Just check MM and see how many good monsters are there. No surprise it won't be too many good gods stats...

A campaign for evil aligned characters isn't supported as well the ol' traditional and save "let's get rid of all evil"...

I'm not particularly fond of bad or good axis for campaign... I just feel it could be better balanced...

 

[The Little Raven]

Weird, I could have sworn that Orcus was a demon lord. Did the Raven Queen die and make him a god?

For a guy obsessed with semantics (like his explanation for why it's okay to say 4e is not D&D, but it's not okay to call 4e D&D), justanobody makes a ton of mistakes when it comes to actual facts.

 

[I'm A Banana]

What are your hopes for future gods to be released? How do you plan to use Tiamat or her consorts (if at all?)? How does this offer new opportunities for epic level play?

My Athar members in my 4e PS game are very happy. Their metasetting agenda basically involves trying to subdue "evil" churches over "good" ones (for now) because they're easier targets. It'll be awesome to have the Godslayers Guild on the Astral Plane actually be able to kill some gods.

I'm a little sad we don't have stats for Bahamut (I understand why, but they still would have been very useful to me).

The discorporation and the quests to switch off that ability are great ideas, but greater than that is the philosophy behind fight-able deities. I think it's good and wonderful. Killing a god is absolutely in the mythic, epic tradition that D&D blatantly robs from at many other points, and this does it well.

I hope to eventually see good ascension rules, too.

The Draconomicon in many ways represents a better direction going forward for 4e than the core did. I haven't seen it yet (I'll be getting it later today), but if this is an example of the niftiness, it shall be nifty indeed.

Now if we could get some work done on dismantling and revising the obnoxious Powers system and an abstract combat system, 4e might actually start being not such a pain in the butt to play and DM for me.

 

[C_M2008]

WoTC,

Please, please do up the Raven Queen. You did Orcus and explained how the two have a powerful antipathy for each other as well as Orcus' goal of taking the Raven Queen's place. It would be nice to get the other side of the issue.

Plus I can totally see a plot where Orcus manipulates some unsuspecting PCs into slaying the Raven Queen and the Pcs have to set things right (and was it part of her plan all along?).

 

[justanobody]

Weird, I could have sworn that Orcus was a demon lord. Did the Raven Queen die and make him a god?

Isn't he level 35 now like Tiamat? That would be god power, as well as being the prince of the undead would make him a minor god for his realm.

Where exactly did the Raven Queen come from? What book/year/page was she first printed so I can check their relationship?

For a guy obsessed with semantics (like his explanation for why it's okay to say 4e is not D&D, but it's not okay to call 4e D&D), justanobody makes a ton of mistakes when it comes to actual facts.

And oddly people worship Orcus....worship = god to them.

113th(?) level of the Abyss is nothing to sneeze at. I have never played in the Abyss :gasp: So don't know all there is to know about it. Even deities took form on the Prime Material Plane when they were faced in my games. Because the gods are so petty they don't want mortals in their realms, and seek them out themselves to deal with them...oft to their own undoing.

So as far as I am concerned if somebody worships you, you are a deity.

Does it say in the new MM (which I have not read) that Orcus no longer has worshipers?

Hmmm?

Then the Princes of the Abyss are all gods.

worshiped = deity.

Cite me where it says Orcus is no longer worshiped in 4th, and I will accept he lost his godhood.

But that doesn't explain why he holds the same level as Tiamat, a goddess.

 

[justanobody]

merged to above.

 

[Jack99]

Isn't he level 35 now like Tiamat? That would be god power, as well as being the prince of the undead would make him a minor god for his realm.

Where exactly did the Raven Queen come from? What book/year/page was she first printed so I can check their relationship

He is level 33, and yes, that means he wields as much power as some gods. Still, as I understand it, even though worshipped, he is not a god in 4e. He would like to though.

Raven Queen is a 4e thing, and in short:

DC 20: Orcus desires destruction like all demons, but he
has set his sights higher, aiming at the gods themselves. In
particular, Orcus hungers for the death of the Raven Queen
and to usurp her control over death and the souls of the dead.