4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

When the system actively interferes with immersion then yes, it does not seem to be as geared towards deep roleplaying as ones that do not actively interfere with immersion.

GM: The Goblin strikes at you. Take 9 damage.
PC: That bloodies me. Ok. Thaglec stumbles back clutching his wounded arm then he..
GM: No, I don't want to call that a wound in case it gets healed by an inspiring word.
PC: What?
GM: If it gets healed by the cleric, then it was a wound. If it get healed by the warlord, or resting it was just shaken morale.
PC: But Thaglec is a foppish swashbuckler, when do I get to make quips about ruining my wardrobe while running people through?
GM: Just wait till after the battle then retcon in your dialouge.
PC: ...

Or better yet please explain to me how a PC would describe from a first person perspective what it feels like to get healed by a healing strike from a cleric of Pelor. Remember that it only works if it draws blood (or shakes morale).

4E doesn't sweat the little details that immersion-heads seem to require. It even says it does not. "4E: we don't sweat the little details. Just play the damn game already!" Its built right into the core of the system. Its like complaining that tires are black.

This doesn't sit right with some people, but thats just too bad. The last time around, D&D did sweat the little details and it bothered the living s*** out of me. Just gummed up the game for no good reason. I care more about having the game run well than the stupid little details.

If you want to discuss whether or not the ignoring of little details is a good or bad thing, thats fine. That is not what we have here.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

When the system actively interferes with immersion then yes, it does not seem to be as geared towards deep roleplaying as ones that do not actively interfere with immersion.

GM: The Goblin strikes at you. Take 9 damage.
PC: That bloodies me. Ok. Thaglec stumbles back clutching his wounded arm then he..
GM: No, I don't want to call that a wound in case it gets healed by an inspiring word.
PC: What?
GM: If it gets healed by the cleric, then it was a wound. If it get healed by the warlord, or resting it was just shaken morale.
PC: But Thaglec is a foppish swashbuckler, when do I get to make quips about ruining my wardrobe while running people through?
GM: Just wait till after the battle then retcon in your dialouge.
PC: ...

Or better yet please explain to me how a PC would describe from a first person perspective what it feels like to get healed by a healing strike from a cleric of Pelor. Remember that it only works if it draws blood (or shakes morale).

yes... if all players are not on the same page and/or are attempting to cause a silly OoTS style situation to occur then yes... that situation will occur.
 

I think the 'making a castle move' example IS a bit silly...and MAYBE the 'using it on some creature that doesn't move' is extending it too far...but maybe not, and it's part of the oddness.

I have heard people supporting the CAGI thing say that ONE way of interpreting it is that opponents weren't really where they were originally depicted on the grid. I think I remember someone saying 'No, the superwise wizard didn't get fooled, but he was already too close, SEE? (moves figure)'

In this instance, there is an argument for CAGI affecting ALL targets, because the PC is influencing the narrative as some have said - essentially rewriting the situation in terms of where enemies were placed (in the case of unmoving creatures, changing where they ALWAYS were retroactively).

This isn't me saying anything pro or anti-4e, just pointing out that I THINK that based on some of the arguments made here, CAGI could absolutely be used on creatures that can't move, leading to a bit of oddness, but a bit of oddness that MANY (just not me and a few others) have no problem with. To each their own.
 

Now ladies and gentlemen, THIS is a strawman! With this nonsense, I guess the easiest way to beat a castle would be to declare it an enemy and stand within 15' of a corner, then use CAGI to draw the walls off its foundation and collapse the castle! You could at least pretend to be serious.

*sigh* You said CAGI would not work on a Purple Fungus beause they can't move, therefore they cannot slide 2.

In point of fact almost nothing can slide 2 natively.

So either the CAGI power itself provides the 'slide 2' movement, or... I dunno what the alternative is.

If there was a monster with a speed of one standing 3squares away from the fighter would CAGI or not? Why so?

Since the 'flavor' of the power I keep seeing is 'Oh look an opening' why does it make creature with reach move adjacent to the fighter? How about people armed only with bows?

Does CAGI work on:
An ogre with reach?
A halfling with a sling?
A kobold with a longspear?
An enemy trying to run away? (Possible on a readied action)
A warlock with no melee weapon?
A Purple Fungus?
An aboleth in the water 3 squares away from a fighter on land?

Does it work if the fighter in invisible and silenced? Does it work on sleeping foes?
 

4E doesn't sweat the little details that immersion-heads seem to require. It even says it does not. "4E: we don't sweat the little details. Just play the damn game already!" Its built right into the core of the system. Its like complaining that tires are black.

This doesn't sit right with some people, but thats just too bad. The last time around, D&D did sweat the little details and it bothered the living s*** out of me. Just gummed up the game for no good reason. I care more about having the game run well than the stupid little details.

If you want to discuss whether or not the ignoring of little details is a good or bad thing, thats fine. That is not what we have here.

I agree with you absolutely. I was trying to make a point to Thasmodius who appeared to be claiming that 4e in no way interferes with immersion.
 

I agree with you absolutely. I was trying to make a point to Thasmodius who appeared to be claiming that 4e in no way interferes with immersion.

It interferes with immersion if the little details bother you. It does not interfere with immersion if you don't care. I don't care. Immersion and 4E are subjective.
 

I think a lot of this current discussion can be (and already has been) summed up in saying that 4E is giving players a new form of narrative control that hasn't existed before. Thus Come and Get It doesn't have to be explained a magical, it's just that now the player gets some new authority over how the game world runs that they didn't have earlier. That's it, full stop.

I think the people who are objecting to it the strongest basically fall into two categories: those for who this is entirely new for, and those who simply don't want that play style in their D&D.

For the first group: I'd suggest that they try some other games where this is commonplace. Feng Shui, Donjon or Spirit of the Century immediately come to mind, as does the HERO system or even Mutants and Masterminds. All of those games give the players significant control over what and how actions are resolved in ways that D&D traditionally hasn't. I'd say try one or more of those other games and then see if it causes 4E to either "click," or turns you into someone in group two.

For the second group, those who say "I know what's going on, I just don't like that in my D&D," I'd say you can either feel free to house rule those cases or move on to another game. Complaining about it on a message board comes in a distant third. Yes, I know that Come and Get It might make your monsters do something they wouldn't like to, and that you don't like that. No, there isn't an explanation for it that won't sound magical to you, and that's something fighters shouldn't do. Yes, you can use any number of powers to trip an ooze, something that makes no logical sense. If you're going to play 4E you have to accept those things or house rule them. Either one is okay.

That might come off as dismissive, and that's not what I intended, because that's precisely what I did with earlier editions of D&D. I houseruled the heck out of OD&D and AD&D, and when I found a system that was more to my taste (Champions and Fantasy Hero) I eventually left the ship for it.

When 3E came out, I found that a lot of the things I had left the game over were gone, so I came back to it as well. I am one of those people who likes the new narrative structure to 4E, so to me, it's getting better. There are, of course, things I don't like about 4E, and when I start a full-on campaign with it I'll be house ruling them just like before.

What it all comes down to (in my mind, anyway) is that there is a new mindset to the new edition, and that means there will be people who can't or won't wrap their mind around the new way. There's nothing wrong with that, and nothing inherently right about liking the new way, but in one case you should play and enjoy 4E, and in the other you should play something else that you actually enjoy. When 5E comes out, you might like what you see, and the game will still be there for you.

All of this discussion comes down to people trying to find an explanation for how a power works that will suspend everyones sense of disbelief. That's not going to happen, just like it didn't happen in earlier editions. That's why I left the game years ago. If this was a new phenomenon there would have been no Arduin, Runequest, Tunnels and Trolls, Fantasy Trip or any number of other games created to be "D&D done right," years ago.

--Steve
 

For the second group, those who say "I know what's going on, I just don't like that in my D&D," I'd say you can either feel free to house rule those cases or move on to another game. Complaining about it on a message board comes in a distant third. Yes, I know that Come and Get It might make your monsters do something they wouldn't like to, and that you don't like that. No, there isn't an explanation for it that won't sound magical to you, and that's something fighters shouldn't do. Yes, you can use any number of powers to trip an ooze, something that makes no logical sense. If you're going to play 4E you have to accept those things or house rule them. Either one is okay.

That might come off as dismissive, and that's not what I intended, because that's precisely what I did with earlier editions of D&D. I houseruled the heck out of OD&D and AD&D, and when I found a system that was more to my taste (Champions and Fantasy Hero) I eventually left the ship for it.

It's not dismissive, I think you're right on. I have issues with 4e. I'm capable of getting past those and playing the game.

What I personally object to is someone trying to insist that 4e is the holy golden be all and end all of gaming and that all perceived flaws (even typos) lie solely in the deranged and malformed minds of a few willfully obtuse madmen. While I agree with them that there are people being willfully obtuse, I don't think those people lie in the '4e isn't for me but I'm willing to live and let live' camp.
 

When the system actively interferes with immersion then yes, it does not seem to be as geared towards deep roleplaying as ones that do not actively interfere with immersion.
That standard is subjective. As such, I can assure you that at my table (and plenty of tohers), 4E does not actively interfere any more than 3.x did.

GM: The Goblin strikes at you. Take 9 damage.
PC: That bloodies me. Ok. Thaglec stumbles back clutching his wounded arm then he..
GM: No, I don't want to call that a wound in case it gets healed by an inspiring word.
PC: What?
GM: If it gets healed by the cleric, then it was a wound. If it get healed by the warlord, or resting it was just shaken morale.
PC: But Thaglec is a foppish swashbuckler, when do I get to make quips about ruining my wardrobe while running people through?
GM: Just wait till after the battle then retcon in your dialouge.
PC: ...
The GM in your hypothetical dialogue is being pedantic. I would never play at this table.

Or better yet please explain to me how a PC would describe from a first person perspective what it feels like to get healed by a healing strike from a cleric of Pelor. Remember that it only works if it draws blood (or shakes morale).
It looks like the radiant glow of divine power, exploding from the hammer head and bathing the party in healing light. For me.
 

If there was a monster with a speed of one standing 3squares away from the fighter would CAGI or not?
Yes.

Because the monster runs at the fighter, adding +2 to his movement speed.

An ogre with reach?
Yes. "Seeing the smirking fighter, the ogre advances to within biting distance, Mike Tyson-style."

A halfling with a sling?
Yes. "Doubting the efficacy of his sling at close quarters, the kobold draws his dagger and turns to meet the advancing fighter."

A kobold with a longspear?
Yes. "Doubting the efficacy of his pole-arm at close quarters, and without a phalanx of fellow soldiers, the kobold draws his dagger and turns to meet the advancing fighter."

An enemy trying to run away?
The use of CAGI means that, for the given round, the enemy has chosen to not run away.

A warlock with no melee weapon?
Yes. "Full of Hellish/Elvish/Cthuloid horror-ish rage, the warlock turns to meet the fighter, assuming he can teleport away if things go badly."

A Purple Fungus?
No. That's just common sense.

An aboleth in the water 3 squares away from a fighter on land?
So long as it can get closer, yes.

Does it work if the fighter in invisible and silenced?
No. That's just common sense.

Does it work on sleeping foes?
Nope. See above.

This isn't particularly hard...
 

Remove ads

Top