Battlerager....Overpowered?

[Bagpuss]

Did the player get bored using the same power over and over, or frustrated at missing with daily and encounter powers more often?

Also how effective is a Defender that can't hit with is basic attack, which he is forced to use with Combat Challenge and OA. Is it creating a Defender that can't defend. If the class doesn't fill the role that's another different problem with it.

 

[Kraydak]

Also how effective is a Defender that can't hit with is basic attack, which he is forced to use with Combat Challenge and OA. Is it creating a Defender that can't defend. If the class doesn't fill the role that's another different problem with it.

Seriously, where is this "oh noes, a battle-rager will never hit!!1!1" coming from? A bog-standard 16 str dwarven battle-rager, when compared to an 18 str non-dwarven weapon talent, sword user, is at a grand total of -3 to hit. That isn't negligible by any means, no, but said bog-standard dwarf will also be hitting like a truck when he does connect, which will still be a whole lot of the time.

In fact, due to the superiority of hammers, barring Marked Scourge (i.e. when compared to pre-MP sword fighters), he will doing more damage than the sword-wielder.

If the fighter is trying to keep someone off me through the threat of damage (i.e. is being a fighter), I would prefer the higher average DPS guy. It's maybe just be, but he is the higher threat... and therefore the better defender.

(Yes, a non-battle-rager does provide more threat. A battle-rager hammerer however provides more threat than a pre-MP swordguy. If a pre-MP swordguy is a valid defender, then so is a battlerager.)

 

[Stalker0]

Seriously, where is this "oh noes, a battle-rager will never hit!!1!1" coming from? A bog-standard 16 str dwarven battle-rager, when compared to an 18 str non-dwarven weapon talent, sword user, is at a grand total of -3 to hit.

To me the comparison isn't even that far apart in attack. Its not like the battlerager suddenly made hammers useful. If I was a hammer weilding character before, and now I'm a battlerager, I'm only losing 1 attack bonus.

 

[Saeviomagy]

To me the comparison isn't even that far apart in attack. Its not like the battlerager suddenly made hammers useful. If I was a hammer weilding character before, and now I'm a battlerager, I'm only losing 1 attack bonus.

I think everyone's caught Dave Noonan's bug, where hitting becomes all powerful and the actual average damage of a given attack is thrown out the window.

That might be semi-valid when we're talking about fighter AoOs if you want a foe to stop moving, but I'd bet that none of these people are, for instance, picking up careful attack.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Yeah, but careful attack is worthless (except possibly vs. minions) ...
While Sweeping Blow and Masterstroke are godly.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yeah, but careful attack is worthless (except possibly vs. minions) ...
While Sweeping Blow and Masterstroke are godly.

No, careful attack is good when, for some reason, you really must hit. It's great if you're using an AoO and your goal is to stop the target's movement for instance.

But it's bad to use in general. I think we all agree on that.

So why is losing +1 to hit such a huge loss when we gain battlerager in place of it?

 

[Danceofmasks]

Battlerager isn't bad.
However, it's not overpowered ... since in my reckoning, con fighters were suboptimal to begin with ... and hitroll is otherwise king.

[personal opinion]

I've played games with a lot of different builds as party members ... from what I've seen, mainstat 20 and mainstat 18 is a significant difference ...
So much so that I'd say the extra other stat points are usually not even worth a consideration.

The +1 to hit isn't just a 5% swing ... it's a cumulative trigger.
If that one extra righteous brand lands, then that subsequent daily is used earlier ... and possibly an action pointed attack, too.
Optimised offensive parties will end combats between 10% and 30% faster (in # of rounds), and that equates to a lot less damage taken.
As well as much fewer instances of possibly fatal conditions being inflicted.

Now, that's not to say I wouldn't play a battlerager.
I'd play one in a heartbeat if the rest of the party aren't kitted out to wipe the board clean in a minimum of rounds ...
It is a great deal tankier, and tanky = awesome for a defender.

But defense is by definition suboptimal.

[/personal opinion]

 

[Blizzardb]

No, careful attack is good when, for some reason, you really must hit. It's great if you're using an AoO and your goal is to stop the target's movement for instance.

But it's bad to use in general. I think we all agree on that.

So why is losing +1 to hit such a huge loss when we gain battlerager in place of it?

You usually can't use attack powers as opportunity attacks, unless for some reason they count as basic attacks.

I recently played a fighter and I used careful attack (sure strike) quite often. Usually to hit a minion or creature that is very low on HP.

On topic: I think that the problem with the battlerager is that his benefits not only are very strong, but also sound cooler for a defender - "Temporary HP when I get hit? Bring them on!" When I play a defender I don't want 5% chance to hit as much as I want staying power.

 

[FireLance]

On topic: I think that the problem with the battlerager is that his benefits not only are very strong, but also sound cooler for a defender - "Temporary HP when I get hit? Bring them on!" When I play a defender I don't want 5% chance to hit as much as I want staying power.

While I do agree that a battlerager benefits look good on paper, and perhaps more importantly, make the player feel good about having them, I really wonder if they are overpowered good.

I think the key questions to ask are:

1. Is the (non-battlerager) fighter usually out of healing surges when the party takes an extended rest? (Alternatively: does the party normally take an extended rest because the (non-battlerager) fighter is out of healing surges?)

2. Does the (non-battlerager) fighter regularly drop to 0 hit points or less during fights?

3. Does the party Leader usually have anything better to do with his minor action if he isn't healing the (non-battlerager) fighter?

If you answered "no" to all of the three questions, then making the non-battlerager fighter into a battlerager fighter probably isn't overpowered in your game.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

While I do agree that a battlerager benefits look good on paper, and perhaps more importantly, make the player feel good about having them, I really wonder if they are overpowered good.

I think the key questions to ask are:

1. Is the fighter usually out of healing surges when the party takes an extended rest? (Alternatively: does the party normally take an extended rest because the fighter is out of healing surges?)

2. Does the fighter regularly drop to 0 hit points or less during fights?

3. Does the party Leader usually have anything better to do with his minor action if he isn't healing the fighter?

If you answered "no" to all of the three questions, then a battlerager fighter probably isn't overpowered in your game.

Okay, it was just one session. Level 15 characters, Dwarven Battlerager, Tempest Human Fighter/Wizard (Paragon MC), Dwarven Melee Cleric (loaded with healing powers), Tiefling Infernal Warloc.

1. Neither fighter was out of healing surges.
2. He never dropped to 0 hit points, and I think he didn't even go to bloodied.
3. The party leader very rarely used his Healing Word power. In fact, the party used mostly at-will powers the entire evening because no one took enough damage. Only my aforementioned Fighter got dropped to bloodied once per combat to warrant a Healing Word. Most of the Clerics (if not all) provided healing, so were basically wasted on us.


Maybe it's just broken because we had two Defenders that could absorb basically all enemies attacks and still distribute it among each other, but this is certainly a _very_ powerful combination. Maybe if the Battlerager is the only focus of enemy fire, it looks different, but I am absolutely unconvinced at this moment.

PS: I am not sure your questions are phrased correctly so that 3 Nos mean the Battlerager is not overpowered.