Battlerager....Overpowered?

[FireLance]

PS: I am not sure your questions are phrased correctly so that 3 Nos mean the Battlerager is not overpowered.

Okay, slightly edited for clarity.

 

[Bagpuss]

1. Is the (non-battlerager) fighter usually out of healing surges when the party takes an extended rest? (Alternatively: does the party normally take an extended rest because the (non-battlerager) fighter is out of healing surges?)

No normally because we are all out of daily powers or it's a logical place to take on.

2. Does the (non-battlerager) fighter regularly drop to 0 hit points or less during fights?

Yes. Both the fighter and the paladin are up and down like yo-yo, pretty much every fight.

3. Does the party Leader usually have anything better to do with his minor action if he isn't healing the (non-battlerager) fighter?

Occasionally I do, but not often. But I routinely use both healing words on the party defenders.

 

[Blizzardb]

In the climactic final fight of the last campaign I played as a player, my (one-handed) fighter was the only one that dropped unconscious (and the only one seriously wounded for that matter). Guess I did my job as a defender

If he was a battlerager, even with a con modifier +2, he probably would've stayed around his bloodied value (took many hits, but with little damage from each).

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think everyone's caught Dave Noonan's bug, where hitting becomes all powerful and the actual average damage of a given attack is thrown out the window.

I keep seeing average damage thrown around in this discussion, and nobody seems to bring up the obvious point that damage is only half the important thing here. What about powers that do things on hit? Even if the hammer fighter deals more damage (which I'm not convinced of), a miss is a miss is a miss.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I keep seeing average damage thrown around in this discussion, and nobody seems to bring up the obvious point that damage is only half the important thing here. What about powers that do things on hit? Even if the hammer fighter deals more damage (which I'm not convinced of), a miss is a miss is a miss.

"Average Damage" is not just the average of what you roll for damage, but the average after your frequency to hit is factored in. So if I have an average damage roll of 10, and 50% chance to hit a give AC, my overall average damage is 5 (against that target).

For those powers with rider effects, their average damage follows the same rules, while the rider effects (if not causing HP damage) is simply a function of the chance to hit. But as others have pointed out, if you're a hammer wielding weapon specialist who retrains to battlerager, you've only lost +1. So the impact on the frequency of rider effects on a hit coming into play is pretty obvious.

That said, I don't think average damage is half of the important thing, as you say. I think it's more like 4/5 the important thing. Even with all the other things you can pull off - sliding, causing penalties, etc. - the goal is to get the opponent to zero hp, and that's done through damage.

 

[Sir Brennen]

What if the temp HP gained by the Battlerager class feature was only 1/2 Con instead (min 1)?

Or, since people are suggesting that the temp HPs gained act like DR, why not actually make it DR, equal to 1/2 Con Mod (min. 1)? This DR still only functions against melee/close attacks.

But then a change needs to be made to the lightly armored, weapon damage bonus option (gained whenever you have TmpHP's). It could be do so it's gained against the opponent that most recently hit you. You can switch the bonus to a new opponent that hits you, or you can maintain the bonus against your current target.

Leave Invigorating as is with this change, including the Battlerager trait of letting Invigorating Tmp HP's stack with any others that you have.

 

[James McMurray]

Or, since people are suggesting that the temp HPs gained act like DR, why not actually make it DR, equal to 1/2 Con Mod (min. 1)? This DR still only functions against melee/close attacks.

Using 1/2 con might not be too bad, but this feels like it would be too powerful to me. When it's temporary hit points, your ability basically means you will rarely get targeted with powers that grant temp hp, because you've already got some or you're expecting to get more soon. When it's DR it will start to stack with all temp hp, but not other sources of DR. But those other sources are so few and far between that it isn't really an issue.

Making it DR would definitely cut back on its power level at high levels, when fighters and barbarians get DR stances / rages.

 

[Stalker0]

Or, since people are suggesting that the temp HPs gained act like DR, why not actually make it DR, equal to 1/2 Con Mod (min. 1)?

I think this way is weaker and easier to track than the current option. At best your only getting 2 DR at 1st level (when you could theoretically get up to 5 temp hitpoints per hit with 20 con), for almost all builds you would get 1 DR.

Though the funny thing about doing it this way is that con really doesn't effect the build that much. Anything from an 8 to a 16 con has the same DR, so dex fighters get just as much love.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I recently played a fighter and I used careful attack (sure strike) quite often. Usually to hit a minion or creature that is very low on HP.

I hope you never used it for either of these when there was a second foe standing. You do have cleave, right? If not, there's the problem: you chose careful attack over cleave.

What about powers that do things on hit? Even if the hammer fighter deals more damage (which I'm not convinced of), a miss is a miss is a miss.

He misses 5% more often for not having his weapon talent, and a further 5% for using a hammer instead of a sword. It's very much worth noting that he at no point is forced to use a hammer: it's a good fit and he gets some decent damage out of it, but if he decides he really wants to stick status effects to people, he could easily switch to a sword.

 

[Blizzardb]

I had cleave and also tide of iron (human fighter). Surprisingly, I didn't use them way more often than sure strike.