A thread about Jedi Knights.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Over on another board, I have been trying to quantify and qualify the Jedi Knight, that concept made famous by the Star Wars films.
I have been using the material from the films (but not from other sources) to attempt direct extrapolations towards creating rulessets and yardsticks for measuring and defining these characters.
The point of doing this was to enable a discussion. I wanted a discussion based on some sort of solid rules, solid rulers and yardsticks, and not a philosophical discussion (that is, a discussion based on mere guesses and personal opinions only, with no common reference to work from.)

I know there are a lot of Star Wars fans out there (lol ... indeed, tis so.)
I thought some of you here on ENWorld might want to discuss the concept of the famed Jedi Knight (and their infamous foes, the Sith.)
I will bring over some of my posts, and put them here. Let's start a discussion on this fascinating topic!

 

[el-remmen]

It really depends if you are looking at the first three films or the second three films - there is a discrepancy in what they can do - and no, Obi Wan being old is not enough an explanation for why the duel with Darth Vader in Episode IV was so subdued as compared to those in the prequels. Even the duels in Episodes V and VI, while more lively are still not as over the top as the prequels.

Personally, I handle the discrepancy by assuming that Episodes I, II & II are legendary exaggerations of the stories of that time told in the days after Episode VI.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I would agree with you there, El-Remmen.
The epic duel in film 3 does not have continuity with the feeble exchange in film 4, or the later battles in films 5 and 6.
We know, of course, that this was the result of a lack of special effects technology (at that time) and the problems of an actor wearing such a heavy and cumbersome suit as Vader's armor was.

I must wonder if Lucas will 'upgrade' his battles in films 4, 5, and 6? I wouldn't put it past him to try it.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I am trying to define what a Jedi Knight is. (Not by what is given in the Star Wars Roleplaying Game, but based on what I saw on-screen.)

One way to define Jedi is by what they can achieve as Jedi.

Their primary power seems to be Karmic Power. That is, the ability to alter fate/destiny/causality, altering the probabilities of specific futures happening. Thus, altering the Karma (the fate) of people, unresolved situations, storylines, and all of it.
Also, their vulnerability to Dark Karma, a tendency towards a dire fate/destiny/causality taking a really rotten course, if they 'break the laws of the Force' by using the Dark Side of the Force as Jedi Knights.
And, in addition, being subject to altered Karma through the actions of other Jedi Knights and/or Sith (but then again, everyone else is subject to the altered Karma as well.)

I tried to give my thoughts on this subject, in a long and rambling post, touching the relevant subjects here and there, making a lot of commentary. Here is that post.

I am rather unfamiliar with the Oriental concept of Karma, but I've tried to make some guesses about it and how it related to the Jedi.
It seems that what scientists would call Causality, could be manipulated. The future was never certain, but the *probability* of a *particular* future going one way, or the other way, *could* be altered. So, you could attain Good Karma (where, it was more likely good things would happen to you and your friends and your cause) and you could attain Bad Karma (where, it was more likely bad things would happen to you and your friends and their cause.) You could attain both Good and Bad Karma simultaneously. They didn't balance out. And so your fate (or, your destiny, your Karma, what's going to happen to you) ceases to be a simple matter of scientific Causality, and becomes twisted around, in opposite directions, by this Good and Bad Karma.

So, what causes Good and Bad Karma? From a simple viewpoint: You do Bad Things, expect Bad Stuff to happen to you. You're going to get yours. Do Good Things, expect rewards. Expect better things in your life.
I choose to put it that way because such terminology seems to convey the idea most quickly. Committing Good Deeds = Accumulating Good Karma. Committing Evil Deeds = Accumulating Evil Karma. Once you have accumulated this Karma, it MUST act on you. Events WILL be changed by it. Punishment and Reward WILL be doled out. That is an absolute, an absolute reality ... in the Universe of the Jedi Knight.

So, what is an Evil Deed? For a Jedi Knight (and only for a Jedi Knight) it is using the Force while experiencing the emotions of anger, hate, fear, or jealousy. Not one or the other, alone, but the use of both together (which produces a greater effect: 1 + 1 = 3, which is why so many Jedi 'cheated' and 'broke the law' of the Force by pulling these stunts.)
What is a Good Deed? I suppose, it is actions using the Force combined with the emotions of compassion, love, joy, and kindness. Again, combining emotion with action creates a greater effect, and 1 + 1 = 3.

For the Jedi, committing Evil Deeds - 'breaking the law' of the Force by abusing it - garners Bad Karma. Committing Good Deeds - 'obeying the law' of the Force (or, I might add, doing their job ... wasn't this supposed to be their job, stated in their founding charter? And hadn't they all, Yoda included, forgotten their own charter?) - garners Good Karma.
For the Sith, the reverse is true. Committing Good Deeds garners Bad Karma, and committing Evil Deeds garners Good Karma. It pays to act using the Force and employing anger, hate, fear, and jealousy. To act with compassion, love, joy, or kindness, brings punishment.
Jedi or Sith, they must obey the Law of the Force. Break that Law (or, those Laws ... I am not a Star Wars expert, and am only guessing here) and you will pay for it. You will pay, whether you are Jedi or Sith. Perhaps those around you will pay. You will lose what you want to have happen. For Karma affects your very destiny, alters the very flow of Causality, and you've just messed yourself over in the most major way (something nobody ever thought to tell Anakin. He found it out anyways ... the hard way.)

So, in game terms, in rules terms (I love to discuss such things in Rules Terms ... makes it far easier than Philosophical or Religious or Zen discussions!) ... if you are a Jedi Knight, you're a kind of Exalted Character (3E Book of Exalted Deeds.) If you are a Sith, you are a Vile Character (3E Book of Vile Darkness.)
Everytime you commit an act using the Force and do it with kindness, love, mercy, selflessness ... you garner a permanent change in the rules as they pertain to you. For example, say, +1 to a roll of your choice, at some point in the future. Why? Because you committed a good deed.
Committing good deeds is no longer a mere philosophical issue. It is a bread and butter issue, an issue of expedience. It is *expedient* to commit good deeds. You may be a nice guy who *enjoys* committing good deeds, and thus you have the best of all worlds. In being a Nice Guy, you are also being an Expedient Guy. Win/win.

But the reverse applies.

If you, say, decide you will ... slaughter every last man, woman, and child of this monstrous cult (those Sand People, real monsters, so it's ok to kill them!) then ... well, you 'broke the rules' and there are consequences. There is no appeal. The DM hits you with a one time -5 to a die roll (you committed a rather major atrocity there ...)
You don't like that? Then, you shouldn't have committed that act using the Force and anger and rage! (Karma is, obviously, more complicated than the +1/-5 I am describing. I don't have a Rules System that describes how it would work, and can't figure out one. All I can say is, the effects are long term. If I was DM, and you had a -5 coming, I would apply that -5 to the roll that was the most crucial in the character's career, at the point where it would do the WORST POSSIBLE damage, or cause the MOST POSSIBLE harm, to the character and everyone around him. A lot of angry players, but that would be my job as DM. That +1? The player could allocate that, as he wanted, when he wanted.)

If we were using the Chronomancer supplement, and one looked up the Time Stream, looking up the stream of Timelines that represent Destiny, such acts of Good and Evil would cause the 'distant' Time Stream to alter, or perhaps the 'near' Time Stream, and this would be obvious to any Chronomancer watching it happen. But exactly what the change would be, would not be known.

-

So, the Jedi's primary ability is the ability to manipulate Karma (or destiny, or fate, or causality, or whatever you want to call it) with Good Deeds (deeds using the Force combined with certain lofty emotions.) Or, if they 'break the rules' and use the Force with certain nasty emotions (using the Dark Side), then they also alter Karma ... in a way bad for them. This Short Term Gain Means Long Term Pain.
For the Sith, exact same thing, except the reverse.

Commit enough Good Deeds, and you accrue immense amounts of Good Karma. Commit a sufficient number of Good Deeds, and you're set for life ... everything is simply going to go your way.
Or, if a Sith, commit enough Evil Deeds, and everything is going to go your way, and they can wail in vain (the Emperor, with hundreds of years of Evil Deeds and no violations of the 'law of the force' seems to have accrued this mountain of Good Karma for himself ... and so everyone else was out of luck.)

-

Using this terminology, then - this set of 'rules' - I think I can hypothesize about the nature of the 'prophesy' given long ago (by some Jedi?) about the Chosen One bringing 'Balance' to the Force.

The Jedi Council and the Jedi Order, like the Government of the Old Republic, had decayed into something ineffectual and corrupt.
But whereas the decay of the Government of the Old Republic was merely a political affair (and doomed to ever repeat itself ...) the decay of the Jedi Council involved Magic - the Force - and so the rules of the Force came into play.

The Jedi Council somehow *forgot* that committing Good Deeds was the source of Good Karma. In the place of Good Deeds, they had placed Unquestioning Service (which garnered no Good Karma at all, even if it *did* help the Old Republic.) (HOW they went from an Order of Good Deeds to an Order of Unquestioning Service, I do not know, but that seems to be what happened. I can imagine some scenarios, though.)
Instead of telling Anakin to 'care' about people, Yoda told him to be a psychopath (what else is telling someone 'not to care about anyone' ?) So much for Good Deeds ... pretty hard to commit Good Deeds with the Force and Lofty Emotions, when you are a psychopath. (It may make for *great* warriors, to be a psychopath, but it makes for a really lousy Jedi, if you can no longer accumulate Good Karma because you no longer do Good Deeds, because you no longer have lofty emotions, because Yoda the Clueless told you to be a psychopath.)

No more Good Karma, then. What about Bad Karma?
Lots of it. Mountains of it.
Here's a 10 year old kid in front of the Jedi High Council, and what is their reaction? Fear. They dare to lecture him about fear ... and they are afraid. Well, that is 'breaking the law of the Force.' The Force doesn't grant exceptions to it's laws, not for expediency or logic and not for rank, Jedi Masters Included. Rack up some Bad Karma, guys.
Yoda will not train Anakin, because he is afraid of him ... or simply can't be bothered? Everyone else who knew anything about what they were doing (certainly not Obi-Wan ... WAS there anyone besides Qui-Gon LEFT, who knew what they were doing, by then?) could be bothered, even if Anakin was the most powerful Force Sensitive in the whole Galaxy! Rack up MORE Bad Karma, guys!
I saw the anger on Obi-Wan's face when Qui-Gon was killed. Perfectly human, perfectly natural, even perfectly normal. But Magic follows it's own rules, and normalcy need not apply. Obi-Wan, the Force does not grant exceptions to it's rules for circumstances. You used anger to win the battle against Darth Maul. Chock up more Bad Karma.

(Hey Yoda, arrogance and elitism may not generate Bad Karma by themselves, but they DO have the minor side effect of taking away some of your OTHER Jedi Powers, such as the ability to see Sideways into the Present, or into the Future and Past? You do realize that, right? No? No??? Oh well, your loss.)

Anyways, the Jedi High Council committed enough violations of the rules of the Force to generate more Bad Karma than I could shake a stick at, within the films (1, 2, and 3) alone. God knows how much more they committed Off-Screen during the timeframe within the films, alone.
And hey, hadn't they been around for a thousand years? Just how long had they been corrupted? How long had they been breaking the rules of the Force as they pleased? For just *how long* had the Bad Karma been piling up? How big a mountain of Bad Karma was it? The size of Mt Hood? The size of Mt McKinley? The size of Mt Everest?
More likely, the size of one of those giant arcs of plasma coming off the sun during a Solar Storm (you know, the kind you could put the Earth in, and never find it?) Yeah, I think that's more like it. THAT'S the kind of Bad Karma the Jedi Council and the Jedi had accumulated.

Meanwhile, over centuries, the Emperor and his Sith apprentices had accumulated a mountain of equal size, of Good Karma (good for *them*) about equal in size.

Thus karma, or destiny, or fate, or causality, was doomed to be completely dark, completely horrific, completely and altogether bad. The Jedi through their decay, and the Sith through their ascendance, had created this situation.

-

And this was the Imbalance in the Force. THIS was the Imbalance, the Chosen One was Chosen for, to correct.

For if you owe a lot of money, and you pay it, then the debt is settled, right? (well, hopefully. If it's a credit card company, then lol ... but let's just say the bill is paid ...)
So, if you have a mountain of Bad Karma, and something horrific happens, that uses up the Bad Karma, and the score is settled, right? You aren't alive to see this, because the Horrific Event killed you and everyone else, but ... the balance is restored!
THAT was the Prophesy. Or, at least, that is my hypothesis.

If this is the case, there is no way that Yoda or the Jedi could have ever known, for they had somehow forgotten the rule of Karma. That is Yoda, had forgotten that 'breaking the rules' of the Force, earned you Bad Karma.
Personally, I don't think he forgot. What I believe, is he became Complacent. This is a problem very common in older societies and orders in the Real World, so why not the Jedi?
So with complacency amongst the leadership, and arrogance and elitism (we are always right ... nothing bad can ever happen to us ... we will always succeed ...) they dismissed the imminent catastrophe. They could not even conceive of the imminent catastrophe. Such thinking was literally impossible.

The Force itself, had other ideas. It most certainly did not forget.

It killed them. Every last one. Most never even saw their deaths coming (whether physically or with the Force.) Most never knew what hit them. What they could not conceive of, they were not also not permitted to actually see happen. Too bad it was their own deaths they were not permitted to see happen.
Then again, things like this happen when a mountain of Bad Karma the size of the Earth had been accrued, and now the Bill for it had come due. (And, like with the Taxman, not paying is not an option, with the Force.) Payment in full was exacted, and the Jedi were annihilated. (Poor them. Some of them were totally innocent!)

-

For Anakin, the Force decreed something far worse than death. But then again, Anakin had accumulated so much Bad Karma that I shudder to even imagine it. Look at his deeds in the films. Do I really need to explain?
A whole life of envy and anger, fear and rage. Massacre (of those Sand People, perfectly natural they said ...) More killing in anger. More fear. More anger. On and on and on (His sanity was taken from him also, another side effect of the Bad Karma, and now insane he starting 'breaking the rules' in ever worse ways, thus accumulating even more Bad Karma, and the Death Spiral went from there.)
He went on to the massacre a large number of innocent children. And then tried to choke Padme to death. I guess the Force decided to award him with a physical makeover so his body matched his mind. Or the Bad Karma decreed it. Or both. It doesn't matter that nobody told Anakin about this little rule. Ignorance of the law was no excuse.
A very Dark Fate indeed was meted out, settling the score in a most ghastly way (I would call being turned into a Frankensteinian Monster ghastly.)
The Emperor convincing him that he killed Padme was the nice icing on the cake, to top off his fate. You can say the Emperor did it or Karma did it; the result is the same (I'll say they both did it, and leave it at that.) Vader believed this for the rest of his life, and thus went into an eternal pain more dire than anything he had experienced yet (which is saying something, considering the unpleasant fate meted out to him by Obi-Wan on the volcanic planet.)
You can summarize it in simple, if brutal, terminology: You choose to be a monster, you earn a monstrous fate. The Force sees to this. And no, you can't escape the long arm of the Law ... of the Force. (And ignorance, is not an excuse. Or expedience. Or logic (regular or extra twisted.) Or whatever justification or rationalization you care to come up with.)

-

Could the Prophesy have been avoided? I don't believe it. I think it was inevitable.
Could the fulfillment of the Prophesy been less horrific? Yes. Far less horrific. It would still have been bad (the Jedi would still have lost power, at the least), but it didn't have to be so completely dark, so utterly awful.

But then, Anakin didn't have to kill those Sandpeople. Or the children. Or try to kill Padme.
Yoda didn't have to abandon the very creed of his order, and ask people to be psychopaths. He didn't have to be an arrogant elitist who knew he was always right.
The others could have chosen to have more open minds. They could have chosen to do this Simple Something called OBEYING THE LAW - that is, the Law of the Force, where Good Deeds = Good Karma and Evil Deeds = Bad Karma. They didn't have to break the law, give in to fear and hate, anger and jealousy, and all the other nonsense they pulled.
There is nothing like OBEYING THE LAW, when you are working with something REALLY POWERFUL like the Force, and it has these absolute Laws that MUST BE obeyed ... or else!!

The Emperor understood this! Why couldn't they? And why couldn't someone TELL Anakin about the LAW? Was that too hard? Was that too much to ask? Well, yes it was ... when the Jedi Council of Elders ITSELF had forgotten the very laws of the Force!!!

And so, a Terrible Fate was decreed. The Force, if nothing else, was pitiless. It had awarded that Dark Karma, and now the bill came due.

-

If the above speculation is accurate (I've never read any of the Expanded Universe books, or the Star Wars Roleplaying Game books, just seen the films and extrapolating from them, and again I know little to nothing about the Oriental concepts of Karma, Zen, and whatever ...) then a lot of other things that did not make sense - and which seemed like poor writing - suddenly make sense.

Much of the action I am speaking of relates to Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader in films 4, 5, and 6, so this business of Karma, and the fulfillment of the Prophesy, is directly relevant to them.

I think that Luke Skywalker, after the events of film 5, understood *everything* above. He may have understood it long before the end of film 5, but after escaping the Dark Fate awaiting him he understood it all too well.
Vader had, in Empire, amassed an enormous amount of Good Karma (for Darth Vader) by being a model Sith (that is, by acting like an insane maniac, living on hate, anger, and fear), and had set a Karmic Trap for Luke Skywalker. That was what the whole situation in Cloud City was about. The very kind of trap Vader fell into in Film 3, he set anew for Luke in film 5.

Now only did Luke walk into a physical trap, and a psychological trap, but he walked into a Karmic Trap. Ala: Hey, Player 2 (Luke's player) ALL your rolls in this scenario will be at -10. Sorry about that, old bud! (lol) Yeah, Vader had done just that, rigged the rolls of the dice.
He even said so. He said: 'Your destiny lies with me, Skywalker. Obi-Wan knew this to be true.' This was not just a psychological ploy. It was a statement of semi-fact. Karma itself dictated that Luke Skywalker Fall. Yoda and Obi-Wan knew it ... they pleaded with Luke not to go, told him what would happen in no uncertain terms ('help them you could, but you will ... destroy all ... for which they have fought, and suffered')

So why didn't Luke Skywalker Fall, in Empire?
Because Luke Skywalker fought to the bitter end, that's why. And when he saw that the end would be bitter, and there was no choice but to Fall, he tried to commit suicide.
Even THAT didn't save him. The Karma was too heavily stacked, Vader had stacked fate too heavily. When Luke and the others tried to escape, there was Vader (Executor Star Destroyer and all) waiting for him, with the Tractor Beam.
Only the fluke of R2's presence saved him.
In short, he escaped by a hair's breath. And that, only after choosing suicide, and that, only after fighting back to the bitter end.

Yeah, after that Luke Skywalker understood the rules above for Karma. If there was ever a Dungeon Master's Guide for Jedi Knights ... well, Vader Force Lightninged it all into Luke's mind, every last word of every last page (all addenda included for free.)

-

It isn't like Luke hadn't been previously warned. He had been, over and over, over and over and over. Whereas nobody told Anakin the rules, Obi-Wan and Yoda made a point of beating Luke in the head with them (to the point where, even if the DMG had been made of iron, it still would have been ripped to shreds by so much misuse of it against Luke Skywalker's thick skull.)
Obi-Wan SAID that no such thing as Luck existed, only Fate. Remember that? Episode 4.
Yoda SAID that Once You Started Down the Dark Path, Forever Would It Dominate Your Destiny (a direct reference to predestination, which the Force must induce, as a concept of Karma.)
They TOLD the kid everything he needed to know. But knowledge wasn't enough. With this, it had to be learned. Anakin learned (by the end of Episode 3, he had learned very completely the whole lesson ...) and Luke had to learn it as well. I guess, with the Force, there is knowledge and understanding, and then there is true knowledge and understanding, and they really aren't the same thing at all.

(I really would hope that such a hard curricum would not be necessary in general to become a fully competent Jedi Knight. Hopefully, the majority of people were able to take the 'easy way'. They didn't have to learn it the 'hard way' as Luke and Anakin did. Then again, Luke and Anakin became two extremely powerful, truly extraordinary Jedi Knights!)

Everything that I asked about, everything I asked you describe that happened in film 6, everything that could have been described as an answer in this thread, I see as a manifestation or consequence or manipulation of this Rule of the Force, this Rule of Karma.
There were, of course, other powers for the Jedi Knights. Many other powers. Most of the others were, also, based on attitude and the long term consequences of actions (and generally, aren't actions based on attitudes? ...)
And yes, these other powers came into play. The ability to see Sideways and into the Possible Futures, amongst them.
But the Karma, was the biggie. The Karma, was the top arbitrator of them all. And all the players involved, Luke, Vader, and the Emperor, knew it.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I also attempted a clarification, in a much shorter post. I mentioned the second major Jedi Power, Forcesense, but did not elaborate.

Concerning what I said about the Karmic Force Rules, let me attempt a simpler approach that equates with D&D.

Imagine you are playing a Jedi Knight PC, and I am the DM.
Under the rules, if you commit a Good Deed, you gain Good Karma. The more Good the Deed is (based on rules in the book) the more Good Karma I award you. You the player get to use this Good Karma as you wish.

What is a Good Deed? It is:

- A Deed that causes some serious difference for someone. It involves something important (like, killing or not killing someone. Or greatly affecting someone's life.)
- A Deed where you use the Force.
- A Deed where you are employing certain emotions. These emotions must be either: love, compassion, mercy, altruism (joy/happiness - you get your kicks out of selflessly helping others, as it were.) Or a combination of the above.

Good Karma is a bonus to a future die roll you make. The Basic Good Karma is a +1, which you may use (and thus use up, for once used it is gone) at any point in the future that you feel like.
For example, one day you need a 19 to make a Saving Throw. You roll an 18. You may add the +1 to that, using up the Good Karma, to make it a 19. You made the Saving Throw.

Good Karma stacks, and can be split up to affect multiple rolls (but never in increments less than +1.) There is no limit to how much Good Karma you may rack up.

For example, you may eventually have enough Good Karma built up to have +100. In that case, you could modify one die roll by 100 (out of d20!), or 10 rolls of +10 each, or 100 rolls of +1 each, or anything in between.

Now ...

You may also use the Dark Side of the Force. This counts as committing Evil Deeds, but you are able to do it. It is not wise or advisable, but you may do it.
An Evil Deed is like a Good Deed, except it involves the emotions of anger, hate, fear, or jealousy. Using these emotions in concert with the Force grants you bonuses to your rolls (see a non-existant book for the details ...)
You may employ the Dark Side as many times as you wish.

Every time you employ the Dark Side, and commit an Evil Deed, you accumulate Dark Karma.
Dark Karma is represented, in it's basic form, by a -1 to a roll. Like Good Karma, Dark Karma stacks, and it can be used to affect one roll or many rolls of the dice.
Unlike Good Karma, you the player do not control this. *I* the DM decide when and how Dark Karma affects you. And the rules specifically state that, I MUST use my wits as DM to use that Dark Karma in the most devastating way possible. I must apply it to your character when it will hurt the most. (No hard feelings, it's just the rules. I gotta do my job, as DM.)
So, if you need a 15 to make that Saving Throw, and you will die if you fail it, and your whole party die with you, and you roll a 16 but have -2 Karma, I the DM will apply the -2 to alter your roll to a 14. Your character is dead, and the whole party is dead. Rules are rules.

If you have Good Karma, you may use it to offset my action. For example, if you have built up +15 Good Karma, you may spend +2 of that to offset the -2 I assigned. You make the Save, your character lives, and the party lives.

If you are playing a Sith, you use the same rules as above, only you gain Good Karma from Evil Deeds, and Dark Karma from Good Deeds, the reverse of the situation for the Jedi. You may use the Good Side of the Force, commit Good Deeds, as many times as you like, but again this is not wise or advisable.

-

This system above, is my first attempt at trying to quantify and qualify the Karmic Rules of the Force, as they apply to Jedi, based on what I saw in the films.
Now, I can take those simple rules above, and apply them to the 'mysterious prophesy' given in the films.

The Jedi Council and the Jedi had built up enormous amounts of Dark Karma, and very little Good Karma to offset this. By enormous, I mean some staggering and uncorrectable figure, such as -100,000,000 Dark Karma.
Simultaneously, the Emperor, by being a Model Sith, had built up a vast amount of Good Karma over the centuries of his life. Again, this was off the scale. +100,000,000 Good Karma, or some astronomical figure of this sort.

The prophesy was that someone would come along and bring Balance to the Force. I believe that whoever prophesied this, saw the Karmic Imbalance that would occur (the numbers above) and that they would be corrected.
But with numbers like the above, obviously the correction would involve something pretty grand in scale, grand enough to match those staggering numbers.

The complete annihilation of the Jedi used up some of the Dark Karma, and some of the Emperor's Good Karma.
The destruction of the Old Republic and the creation of the Empire, balanced out the Karma some more.
The ascension of the Emperor, to being the Emperor, unchallenged and supreme, balanced it out some more.
The dire fate awarded to Anakin Skywalker, balanced out his own Dark Karma, and balanced things yet more.
The death of Padme, balanced it out yet more.
The massacre of billions of innocent people and the devastation of entire worlds, in the years following the creation of the Empire, completed the neutralization of the Karmic imbalance.

So there you are. We take something that was undefined and only discussable in Philosphical Terms, and we Quantify it, Qualify it, and apply it as direct terminology, a set of rules, to define what happened and why.
Is this the correct analysis? I don't know. Based on what I saw in the films, it could be. But to know for sure, I'd have to ask Lucas himself.

Could a less castastrophic answer have employed to neutralize the Karmic imbalance? I don't know. The Karmic Imbalance was staggering, and how do you balance a -100,000,000 versus a +100,000,000? I don't have a way.
Anakin was conceived by the Force to balance those numbers. I suppose he could have found a better way, if Qui-Gon had still been around. I just don't know what that answer would have been.

It is not nearly as easy for me to Quantify or Qualify that crucial thing called Forcesight.
In Dune, the Bene Gesserit had this capacity to look Sideways into the Present (hey, look at what that guy is doing, across the galaxy!) or into possible futures.
In Star Wars, it was based on how Force Sensitive you were, how much you were trained, how well you were trained, and other factors I do not understand.
Considering how utterly important Forcesense is to the stories, it is necessary to Quantify it, though. If we are to discuss what happened, we need such Quantification. Forcesense played too large a role in what happened, to not be a part of the discussion.

 

[Relique du Madde]

Even the duels in Episodes V and VI, while more lively are still not as over the top as the prequels.

Personally, I handle the discrepancy by assuming that Episodes I, II & II are legendary exaggerations of the stories of that time told in the days after Episode VI.

The epic duel in film 3 does not have continuity with the feeble exchange in film 4, or the later battles in films 5 and 6.

Or 1-3 and 4-6 could be propagandized retellings of galactic history. Eisodes 1-3 are the New Republic pro-jedi version (ment to recruit new jedis into the order. Join the order because you'll get cool weapons and elite supernatural powers!) while 4-6 are pro-imperial anti-jedi/sith retellings of the war (After all we all know that the Jedis were not really too powerful since they got massacred and if Vader and Palaptine were so powerful then how is it that ewoks and a rag tag armada destroyed both Deathstars? See? You can't rely on the superstitions since they bring about weakness and defeat).

I must wonder if Lucas will 'upgrade' his battles in films 4, 5, and 6? I wouldn't put it past him to try it.

Don't give Lucas any suggestions! You know he keeps special web-spiders trolling on the net to find ways to destroy our childhood.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I felt that Force Sense was the second most important power of the Jedi Knight and his foe, the Sith.
I made an effort to quantify Force Sense, and asked others for help. Here is what I had to say, admittedly frustrated and flustered because I have not been very successful in my quantification.

I guess one of the yardsticks to measure Force Sense would be ... Self Discipline. The higher one's ranking in Self Discipline, the more Force Sense.
Why?
Self discipline is the underlying thing that is needed for relaxation (a paradox) and clearing your mind (as Yoda would say.) Relaxation and a clear mind in the face of a stressful situation? Self discipline.
This business of relaxation and clearing your mind comes off as being like the meditation of monks. And that is a matter of self discipline (on the part of the monks.)

So, if Self Discipline is ranked on a level of 1 through 100, then the ability to exercise Force Sense would grow with the ranking.

But ...

To have Force Sense in the first place, you must be a Force Sensitive. And that, is a direct equation of how many medi-clordians (spelling?) you have in your body.
Your Force Sense Potential - indeed, all your Jedi Potential - is based on that number. The higher the number, the more potential.

Then, another number must be attained. I guess you'd call this your 'level' as a Jedi. (D&D style.) What level are you?
In this case, it means: how much training have you had? How much hands on experience have you had?

And still yet a *further* number is needed: how well were you trained? Did your trainer know what he was doing? Was he competent? Or incompetent?
Obi-Wan was quite incompetent in training Anakin. Yoda was quite competent in training Luke, for example.

So ...

You have 4 sets of numbers:

- Your Midi-Cloridian Count (or, just call it your Force Sensitivity Level.)
- Your Self Discipline Ranking.
- Your Level.
- How well you were trained. This would not reflect in a number at all ... but in your *attitude.* (And, attitude seemed to be crucial to this subject in all the films. It was arrogance and elitist attitudes that deprived the Jedi of the Old Republic of their Force Sense.)

This 'attitude' business puzzles me mightily. It is crucial, but undefined, and in order to discuss it it must be quantified somehow.

If arrogance and elitism deprived one of Force Sense, then I can guess that humility and open-mindedness enabled Force Sense.
If certainty of oneself (that is, being full of oneself, being certain of oneself without cause) deprived one of Force Sense, then being uncertain, choosing to be deliberately questioning, seemed to enable Force Sense.
Yoda said that being calm and at peace enabled Force Sense. That's pretty direct. And it would indicate that being wildly emotional, irrational, or otherwise mentally preoccupied, precluded Force Sense.

So, this paints an emerging picture: humility, uncertainty, open-mindedness, calmness, tranquility, inner peace, seemed to enable Force Sense. The more one exercised attitudes (or behaved) like this, the more Force Sense.

So how to have immense Force Sense?

- Have the luck to have great Force Sensitivity at the start.
- Be of high level as a Jedi Knight.
- Have an extremely high Self-Discipline score.
- Have the attitudes given above.

Even so, Force Sense is not Omniscience (not even in the Emperor's case.)
One will see Sideways into the Present, see into the near future and near past (thus, the Jedi Reflexes), and see possible Futures and the Past.

I could see a player, if he played his Jedi character correctly and well enough, gaining enough Force Sense that I, as DM, would have to tell him so much about the present and the future that it would wreck the game. We'd be talking about Gamewrecking capacity.
On the other hand, no matter what the character's self-discipline 'score' and his so called 'attitudes', if the player played his character as a hot headed, temtemptuous and arrogant barbarian type figure, impulsive and run-over-everything kind of guy, then he'd not be granted very much Forcesense at all (not by me, at least.)

I'm saying that Force Sense is powerful enough to be a GameWrecker. It is. It is too close to Omniscience ('yes, that is the secret door to Acererak's lair, and there are the traps, and if you do this you overcome them, and if you don't touch the skull he doesn't attack, and ...')
Yet Luke had this kind of GameBreaking power. The Emperor ... well, there'd be no game, since I'd quite literally have to give the player of the Emperor the module itself to read, and allow him to keep rereading it as he pleased throughout the 'game.'

On the other hand, Anakin, with little self-discipline (great power, but a loose cannon) and a serious attitude problem if ever there was one, had little Force Sense, and couldn't take advantage of what he was granted.
In a case like that, I'd give the player vague visions and hints (ala: 'Yes, this is a possible future. And so is this. And this. And this ...')

(puzzled)

Somehow, this isn't enough. It is a yardstick, a ruler, but not defined well enough.
Is there anyone out there with a better take on this, or who could extrapolate something better out of my hypothesizing?

That last sentence being most relevant. I suppose a whole system of rules could be established (a whole game in itself) concerning Force Sense, but I was trying to go to the very basics, the core of the concept (ala: 'there is the fighter, wizard, cleric, and thief in D&D, you play them, you beat the bad guys, you get the treasure, you roleplay, and you have fun') and just begin with that, first.

Everything above, is taken as extrapolations from what I saw on-screen. I am making hypothesise based on what I saw happen in the films. I am not using any other source material.
Obviously, if someone has a line of source material to compliment (or contradict, even) the films, please bring it into the discussion! I want to hear what you have to say here!
And if not that, then just your take on things. Let's discuss the Jedi Knights.

 

[Felon]

Honestly? IMO the jedi knights were a lot more cool as a legend lost to time than they were in actuality. That they deemed emotional castration to be an essential element in self-actualization made them rigid and obtuse.

When people think of Yoda as a cool character, a lot of them are thinking of the Yoda on Degobah, pretending to be a feisty old coot, rifling through Luke's tools and fighting with R2-D2 over a flashlight--basically, the exact opposite of the serene old fart he turned out to be.

Personally, I don't feel the jedis were ever really portrayed in a wholly positive light. They seemed comfortable with imposing their will on others in order to keep the peace. In eps 1-3, they're trying to stop a droid rebellion and a separatist movement. Seems to me, the truly enlightened comprehend the concept of cogito ergo sum, and if somebody wants to leave an organization then it's boorish to force them to stay.